.....Thoughts.......

[ShaunCorbs]

should start to see a few more doing the same as the new regs start being informed/in-forced

Airgap

 

[Harvest Fields]

As long as it works I don’t care mate

 

[Welder]

Thing is Shaun even existing fill valves have a line marked where it must be above the fill level. From my experience most dont even know of its existence never mind its use! To be fair it was only about 12 months ago I learned about it.

 

[townfanjon]

New regs @Shaun ?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

New regs @Shaun ?

yea the water board have decided that the the fill valves that fill from the bottom dont comply any more and you need to fit check valves or use an air gap fill valve

 

[Harvest Fields]

When is that coming in mate?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

When is that coming in mate?

Should be rolling out from now but down to your waterboard to influence/ inform people

 

[townfanjon]

yea the water board have decided that the the fill valves that fill from the bottom dont comply any more and you need to fit check valves or use an air gap fill valve

Shakes his head !!

 

[rpm]

Uses up to 1L less per flush? Can somebody explain how.

 

[Welder]

"up to" weasel words from the BS dept aka marketing...
No doubt they will cast far more than a std fill valve.
Glad I'm no longer on the tools...

 

[rpm]

"up to" weasel words from the BS dept aka marketing...
No doubt they will cast far more than a std fill valve.
Glad I'm no longer on the tools...

Agree, up to is so indecisive, my concern is that things like water saving hippo bags in the cistern greatly effect macerators.

 

[Ric2013]

Banish blue water? So how does a fill valve...? - oh, never mind.

Probably saves water by having a delayed fill action. Torbeck Ecofil or whatever it's called does exactly the same.

So how does a Part 3 not already have an air gap? How do most WRAS approved existing fill valves not have an air gap or anti-siphonic design? I think they do, usually. Even in 1990, we had collapsable tube silencers (which didn't always prevent backflow, but hey ho).

Too much lobbying by firms. Illegal to fit a twin flush valve to a single flush toilet unless: it has WRAS approval as a specifically designed retrofit. Probably illegal to fit a brick to the pan, but a Hippo bag or PHS Flush-wiser fitted to the siphon (which does exactly the same thing) are okay because WRAS approved them.

Shaun. Any links to this new legislation, or is this still just a rumour? Not seen anything in Installer yet.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Banish blue water? So how does a fill valve...? - oh, never mind.

Probably saves water by having a delayed fill action. Torbeck Ecofil or whatever it's called does exactly the same.

So how does a Part 3 not already have an air gap? How do most WRAS approved existing fill valves not have an air gap or anti-siphonic design? I think they do, usually. Even in 1990, we had collapsable tube silencers (which didn't always prevent backflow, but hey ho).

Too much lobbying by firms. Illegal to fit a twin flush valve to a single flush toilet unless: it has WRAS approval as a specifically designed retrofit. Probably illegal to fit a brick to the pan, but a Hippo bag or PHS Flush-wiser fitted to the siphon (which does exactly the same thing) are okay because WRAS approved them.

Shaun. Any links to this new legislation, or is this still just a rumour? Not seen anything in Installer yet.

i will have a look its under a stupid doc number / title

 

[ShaunCorbs]

blue water ric is the backflow issue (eg blue block)

 

[Ric2013]

blue water ric is the backflow issue (eg blue block)

Ah. I thought they were referring to blue water caused by bacterial action in the system causing the copper pipework to degrade and turn the water blue.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

found it it was a letter

 

[Ric2013]

Interesting. So even some WRAS approved 'bottom entry telescopic valves' without an IRN requiring a valve have caused trouble. The solution is to impose a DCV on all bottom entry valves, telescopic or otherwise, because the WRAS approval obviously isn't worth the paper it's printed on?

But thank you Shaun for a VERY informative and useful post. As I'm not an approved installer, I'm not party to information of this quality on a regular basis, and I very much appreciate you taking the time to photograph and upload this letter.

 

[chris watkins]

Any details please Shaun ?

 

[Harvest Fields]

Wonder how many people will cock a def un?

 

[chris watkins]

found it it was a letter

View attachment 34029

Many Thanks Shaun

 

[Welder]

Please forgive me, but when I read that letter I am left genuinely concerned over the outcomes of it. I'll explain.

It says, "...an ever increasing number..." What does that mean? It could be 1 rising to 2 million over a year or literally merely 10 rising to 35 over twenty years. The phrase applies to both but...

What is a "vast range of BE ... valves". Is that a range in terms of different manufacturers or a range in terms of number installed?
By naming names, they could not only reduce the problem, but they could also reduce the inconvenience and additional cost imposed upon already strapped homeowners and tradespeople.

They talk about the valve being the root cause of the incidents. This is fine, but are they being installed to MIs? Is it poor product design or product communication at fault or poor (CBA) installation?

It also occurs to me that over 97% (based on CIPHE numbers of 120K in UK) of plumbers have not done water regs courses so this communication is basically kind of penalising those who do care, those who do do things properly because no one else has heard of it!

What is a new installation? Under existing law, a 'like for like' replacement can be done without needed to 'upgrade' to current regulations. The phrase, "We now enforce" is patently (IMHO) designed to infer that they insist we install to this new regime but IMHO it is unenforcable except potentially in a new build situation which would be done under the ever closed eyes of building control.

I'm certainly not saying here that it isn't a problem. I've seen it and suffered it which is why I knew about the line moulded on decent fill valves. However, this form of scaremongering, partial information, mis-information is as bad as it gets. It sure as hell doesn't leave us any the wiser.

And lastly, does this now mean that all previous WRAS approvals for fill valves are null & void? Are they going to insist manus take 'em off the shelves? As so few people are 'qualified' in this regard, and WRAS approval is actually not worth the paper its printed on, how can they possibly insist?

Sorry for going on

 

[chris watkins]

Spot on Dave.
As far as I am aware the Water Undertakers (Thames) can carry out an inspection at any property and if breaches are found will issue an improvement notice requiring these to be corrected within a few weeks even if the original installation was correct.

It would seem they are both the police, judges & the law makers !!
What hope have we got.

 

[Phil]

I've been to a job a few years ago where the water was turned off in the area for whatever reason and a little girl went to get a drink of water from the kitchen tap and it was blue, householder played hell with Yorkshire water and they sent an inspector out who identified the problem straight away and the blue slime was in one of the upstairs toilet cisterns, I had to do the job with him directing me and he could not get his head around that bottom entry Fluidmaster and how it could prevent backflow, I had to double check valve it but the pipe came out of the wall right under the valve so had to use about 600 elbows and looked a pigs dinner.

 

[Ric2013]

But what if the WRAS-approved DCV fails to prevent backflow because it is also faulty? Perhaps we should put another anti- backflow device behind that?

Some of the valves identified were WRAS-approved, which means that others were not WRAS-approved. If we (reasonably, I think) assume that some of the floatvalves fitted had no approval at all, then they should never have been fitted without a DCV in the first place. The irony is that the same kind of installer who failed to fit the checkvalves where they were already required (with the unapproved valves), is very unlikely to fit them as a result of this edict.

But, hey, easier to write a new rule for us to have to deal with than to ask WRAS how the *#@! they approved valves that don't prevent backflow!

 

[Phil]

What should be banned is blu block, I hate that stuff and I will strangle the inventor with my bare blue stained hands..