Total Newbie - Please help

[Adrian_london]

Hi all.

This is my first posting on here. Basically, this is how my house is set up......

I live in NW London (if that helps). At the moment, I have an old Baxi boiler which is in the kitchen. I have no idea how old it is but it looks very old. My hot water cylinder is in the bathroom with the timer. I have 7 radiators in the 3 bedroom house in total and I live on my own.

I am going to rip out my entire bathroom and start again. I am DEFINATELY having the hot water cylinder moved into the loft. I would also like the boiler moved into the loft to make more space in the kitchen.

Here is my problem...........

I have NO IDEA AT ALL about boilers and I don't want to be ripped off. I am looking for a new boiler and hot water cylinder. I do not want a combi boiler as I love power showers and I've been led to believe that I cannot have a power shower if I have a combi boiler.

I would like to get a 4 bar pump for whatever shower I buy as I love to have my skin peeled off when I shower!!!! I would like a large cylinder as I don't want to have a 2 minute shower and then the water runs cold!!!

Can anyone please advise me on which boiler and cylinder to get.



p.s I don't want to spend a fortune!!

 

[Winston]

Adrian get some quotes done by some local plumbers ask your friends and neighbours. But thats alot of work and it wont be cheap, and the cheapest is not always the best.

You are correct you cannot have a power shower with a combi, it just cant cope with the volume of water to heat and you cant pump from a combi as in effect you would be pumping of the main.

 

[newbie1]

some of the better worcester bosch combis will do the job but no you couldnt run a 4 bar pump
putting boiler in loft is extra because it needs to be boarded walkway to boiler and a guard around the loft hatch as well
also as far as i know you cant put the cylinder up in the loft as the cold from the tank is gravity fed to the cylinder
whatever you decide for putting boiler in loft supply and fit i dont think you will see any change from 2500 plus
you could keep the boiler downstairs and use a new condensing regular boiler and add a pump for the shower near the cylinder and wld prob get this for around the 2000.00 mark depending on any unforseen problems
ime afraid boiler change and cheap dont go hand in hand

 

[Adrian_london]

some of the better worcester bosch combis will do the job but no you couldnt run a 4 bar pump
putting boiler in loft is extra because it needs to be boarded walkway to boiler and a guard around the loft hatch as well
also as far as i know you cant put the cylinder up in the loft as the cold from the tank is gravity fed to the cylinder
whatever you decide for putting boiler in loft supply and fit i dont think you will see any change from 2500 plus
you could keep the boiler downstairs and use a new condensing regular boiler and add a pump for the shower near the cylinder and wld prob get this for around the 2000.00 mark depending on any unforseen problems
ime afraid boiler change and cheap dont go hand in hand

I will concede to leaving the boiler in the kitchen (if I really have to) but I must have the cylinder out of the bathroom and in the loft otherwise there is no point in doing the job at all. I am trying to make more space in the bathroom. This is the only way.

 

[newbie1]

but gravity fed copper cylinder cant gravity feed if its the same height as the cold water storage tank
the feed from the cwst goes into the bottom of the cylinder and feeds it as the hot water is drawn off
possibility of airlocks and slow flow spring to mind

copper cylinder could be located in the bedroom or youre only other option is a high flow combi ie worcester bosch this will also run a preety good shower but not a 4 bar one
you are going to have to compromise somewhere

 

[doitmyself]

You can put the HW cylinder in the loft, but you will have to raise the cold water tank so the bottom is higher than the top of the cylinder.

 

[newbie1]

again this will add a shedload to the cost
wood platform capable of holding the weight and will also prob have to relocate to middle of loft to gain clearance etc

 

[Plouasne]

One thing that all of you so far have overlooked is the fact that most houses built after the war, have roof spaces NOT DESIGNED FOR USE AS A STORAGE AREA, THINK CONCENTRATED WEIGHT 200ltr cylinder full of water = 200kgs plus the weight of the cylinder and fittings

The only way out of your problem, and this is only if you incoming water is of high enough pressure, and the service pipe will support the flow, and that is to have a look at either a wall hung or a floor standing boiler with an integral cylinder, of between 80 and 120 ltrs, and a flow rate of up to 24 ltrs/min, like the Frisquet Hydroconfort, Prestige; Franco-Belge Sunagaz, Idracondens (a twin side by side unit) or the Atlantic Condensol, Aquacondens, all these in my opinion, (if the flow and pressure of the incoming water is sufficient) would be suitable, but the cost of them, is eye watering

 

[doitmyself]

One thing that all of you so far have overlooked is the fact that most houses built after the war, have roof spaces NOT DESIGNED FOR USE AS A STORAGE AREA, THINK CONCENTRATED WEIGHT 200ltr cylinder full of water = 200kgs plus the weight of the cylinder and fittings

We don't know how old the house is.

It already has a cold water tank in the loft, which will be about 50 gallons or 225 litres. Cold water tanks are normally directly above the HW cylinder, which is usually in an airing cupboard. So the walls of the airing cupboard support the weight of the CW tank. It would not be impossible to strengthen the loft to take a hot water cylinder as well.

 

[newbie1]

no different to a couple of lardy f---ers sitting on the bed the extra weight of a cylinder would only require a bit of cross sectioning but as stated the cost of this work will make him shat himself
he will have to compromise

 

[Plouasne]

no different to a couple of lardy f---ers sitting on the bed the extra weight of a cylinder would only require a bit of cross sectioning but as stated the cost of this work will make him shat himself
he will have to compromise

I would like to see what the roof truss makers say, personally I have never liked them, I don't think that you can beat a proper cut roof with full sized timber, but then again I pre-date the dinosaurs

This is what I would call a proper roof

 

[justlead1]

Hi. The hot water cylinder can be placed on the ground floor, under the stairs may be?

 

[Adrian_london]

The house was built in the 1950's

Unfortuantely I don't have space under the stairs to fit a cylinder. There is plenty of space in my loft as I don't use it for storage.

I'll get a few plumbers around to have a look and see what they say.

Thank you for all your help. I'll keep you all updated as to what happens and what people say when they quote me.




Adrian

 

[Plouasne]

The house was built in the 1950's

Unfortuantely I don't have space under the stairs to fit a cylinder. There is plenty of space in my loft as I don't use it for storage.

I'll get a few plumbers around to have a look and see what they say.

Thank you for all your help. I'll keep you all updated as to what happens and what people say when they quote me.




Adrian

You do not want a few plumbers to give you a quote, first you need a structural engineer to advise you on the load carrying capacity of your roof trusses, if the roof is made from roof trusses, or the same if the roof space has ceiling joists, and a cut roof, either that or up your insurance to double what it is now, because you are asking about things that a plumber is qualified to give you a clear answer on, and certainly not from a forum without even seeing the proposed job

At the very least, you will have half a ton of water and cylinder cold water storage tank and platform for the cwst to raise it above the cylinder, sitting in the middle of the span of maybe just a couple or 3 of the joists

 

[newbie1]

there is no way he is going to be able to raise the cwst and build extra strength into the ceiling and have a new boiler for anything less than 3500 even in a recession
the amount of work involved that is a conservative estimate

 

[Plouasne]

I would advise the OP to chose from one of these listed in the link below, either the Idra Condens Duo or the Syestem, it could be then fitted in the kitchen

http://www.atlantic.fr/documents/murales-condensation-doc-co-atlantic.pdf

 

[NickH]

Wow, talk about glass half empty. I reckon the Op has s**t his pants and hidden under the stairs now. How many times have you got a structural engineer out to take a look when you fit a new water tank or move a cylinder ? A bit of common sense goes a long way. If the house was built in the 50's then its almost certainly got a cut roof with ceiling joists sitting, mid span, on load bearing masonry walls. The water tank will most likely be sitting over this wall. He can most likely build a platform to raise the tank and still carry the weight over the walls. He could use a horizontal hot cylinder to get over any hieght issues and again that can most likely be positioned to sit over a load bearing wall. This has all been done many many times before.
All he needs to do now is find a reputable firm with the experience to do it right ( THATS the tough part )

 

[Adrian_london]

Wow, talk about glass half empty. I reckon the Op has s**t his pants and hidden under the stairs now. How many times have you got a structural engineer out to take a look when you fit a new water tank or move a cylinder ? A bit of common sense goes a long way. If the house was built in the 50's then its almost certainly got a cut roof with ceiling joists sitting, mid span, on load bearing masonry walls. The water tank will most likely be sitting over this wall. He can most likely build a platform to raise the tank and still carry the weight over the walls. He could use a horizontal hot cylinder to get over any hieght issues and again that can most likely be positioned to sit over a load bearing wall. This has all been done many many times before.
All he needs to do now is find a reputable firm with the experience to do it right ( THATS the tough part )

I'm sorry, i can't read this. A friend of mine is typing this. I'm under the stairs!!!!!

I would advise the OP to chose from one of these listed in the link below, either the Idra Condens Duo or the Syestem, it could be then fitted in the kitchen

http://www.atlantic.fr/documents/murales-condensation-doc-co-atlantic.pdf

Thank you for the link but I can only speak English.

 

[Plucky]

What about the Worcestor Hi-Flow 550 and the Alpha boiler with Gas Smart flue and thermal store.

Both claim to be able to offer high flow rates of hot water. Why are you so adamant about moving the cylinder?

If you were to put and unvented cylinder in the loft you would be looking at about 300kg of weight. But with unvented you would be removing the Cold water storage tank so the weight would almost be offset. That and any decent plumber can get cylinder over joists/supported walls down stairs and you should have any issues.

 

[Adrian_london]

The reason why I'm so adamant that I want the cylinder moved is because I am ripping out my entire bathroom and trying to make it bigger so I can actually live in the 21st century!!!

I am knocking down some walls and joining the toilet and bathroom together. I want a bigger bath (1800x800 - not the normal 1700x700) and a shower cubicle. The only way I'm going to be able to do all of this is if I move the cylinder. There is nowhere else to put it except the loft.

I have been advised to get the Vaillant ecotec plus system boiler 624. Any thoughts on it?

 

[flat pack]

you need a chippie to draw you a load layout drawing ,if you do it wrong
your ceiling may sag over time or instantly when you fill up .............
have you got the height in the loft
get the right men in for there trade

good luck

 

[Adrian_london]

Thank you for the advice.