Trying to improve a loo!

[Toiletdrip]

Hi,

Newbie here, and I hope that I'm posting in the correct place - apologies if not. I hope this question might prove an interesting one, and one which somebody may kindly be able to answer from their own experience.

I have a loo which is very bad at getting rid of anything put in it! The flushing mechanism is fine. The cistern fills up after being flushed, and empties fine when being flushed, and the cistern empties to the level it should. But any loo roll inside the loo will just spin around in a clockwise direction without going down, and I need to throw a bucket of water down when I flush in order to get anything to disappear.

There are holes at the back of the bowl which I have cleaned out just in case (they were fine; I live in a soft water area), and a large slot at the front which is also clear. There is no obstruction to the wastepipe, and water goes down it fine. Everything else does too with a bucket of water behind it.

My thinking is to try to limit the egress of water in certain areas around the bowl by experimenting with some filler, in order that the clockwise motion stops, and pulling the chain makes stuff go down the hole. But I don't know what filler to use.

Or do I just have a naff loo? Or, please, does anybody have experience of sorting out something like this?

Thanks in anticipation.

 

[king of pipes]

Its more likely to be a restriction in the drainage system somwhere preventing the toilet waste from draining as it should. Kop

 

[Ric2013]

When at rest, how high is the water in the pan above the bottom of the ceramic bit at the back? Should be 50mm, not more. Just wondering whether a bad installer may have used an offset to allow the pan to connect to a waste pipe that is too high for the pan?

In terms of restrictions in the waste, note that this video View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NHy8ARu1cc
shows a pan the outlet of which has been reduced to about 2" in diameter (from the original 4") while it still seems to drain okayish: the water level can be seen to rise slightly during the flush if you look hard enough, but the contents of the pan are very reluctant to clear.

If soft water area, we can probably exclude limescale restriction in the outlet (the bit you can't see without removing the pan). Unless someone has been applying the 'if it's yellow let it mellow' approach?

It may just be a naff loo. Do you know the brand? If you want to play, something like "Sticks Like" is probably as good as any.

If the setup is particularly old, it is possible that the pan is supposed to work on a siphonic principle but that the wrong components have been used in repair - this would also prevent a good flush. That said, siphonic action flushing is really quite rare.

Photos or a video would be useful.

 

[rpm]

Chain, as in the cistern is very high up on the wall? Is it a new problem, how long have you lived there?

 

[Ric2013]

Chain, as in the cistern is very high up on the wall? Is it a new problem, how long have you lived there?

Good spot. Won't be siphonic action if it's a chain pull high level cistern, then.

 

[WC1]

The spinning suggests the holes on 1 side of the pan are blocked or were mis-cast causing uneven flow into pan. You say youve cleaned them but have you tried - bend a coat hanger up and find the holes under the rim, a small mirror can help (give the pan a clean with bog brush and blech first). Flush again. Poke again. Any change?

 

[snowhead]

Have you ever seen it flush correctly, some pans are faulty from new?
If so, has it deteriorated slowly over the years or suddenly failed?

Is it an older W.C with larger outlet in the pan, if so does it still have the original higher volume cistern with it?
Older WC pans need the larger flush volume.

If the WC pan has been moved or is a more modern one, offset pan connectors on the outlet as well as flexi pipes can cause restrictions.

It's possible part of the thin plastic flush diaphragm may have got down into the spray area.

 

[Toiletdrip]

Its more likely to be a restriction in the drainage system somwhere preventing the toilet waste from draining as it should. Kop

Thank you. That is a distinct possibility which I hadn't considered. The wastepipe of the loo is connected to the wastepipe of the one in the next room (the main bathroom), and goes through the wall. The one in the main bathroom flushes perfectly well, though, so perhaps it could be the pipe which connects them both. I can't view much of the pipe which connects them as it has had an enclosure built around it. Perhaps it might even have a slight upward slope.
[automerge]1602941552[/automerge]

When at rest, how high is the water in the pan above the bottom of the ceramic bit at the back? Should be 50mm, not more. Just wondering whether a bad installer may have used an offset to allow the pan to connect to a waste pipe that is too high for the pan?

In terms of restrictions in the waste, note that this video View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NHy8ARu1cc
shows a pan the outlet of which has been reduced to about 2" in diameter (from the original 4") while it still seems to drain okayish: the water level can be seen to rise slightly during the flush if you look hard enough, but the contents of the pan are very reluctant to clear.

If soft water area, we can probably exclude limescale restriction in the outlet (the bit you can't see without removing the pan). Unless someone has been applying the 'if it's yellow let it mellow' approach?

It may just be a naff loo. Do you know the brand? If you want to play, something like "Sticks Like" is probably as good as any.

If the setup is particularly old, it is possible that the pan is supposed to work on a siphonic principle but that the wrong components have been used in repair - this would also prevent a good flush. That said, siphonic action flushing is really quite rare.

Photos or a video would be useful.

Thank you.

I suspect you are onto something with this. I'll measure the level later, and see if it appears that the pipe is too high. The video is interesting - my loo is even worse than that! "The yellow, mellow" approach rarely gets applied!

The water level rises during the flush, but goes down after a couple of seconds.
[automerge]1602941688[/automerge]

Chain, as in the cistern is very high up on the wall? Is it a new problem, how long have you lived there?

Thanks. The cistern is attached directly to the back. Is it called close-coupled? The loo has been much the same for the last 23 years that I've lived here.
[automerge]1602941867[/automerge]

The spinning suggests the holes on 1 side of the pan are blocked or were mis-cast causing uneven flow into pan. You say youve cleaned them but have you tried - bend a coat hanger up and find the holes under the rim, a small mirror can help (give the pan a clean with bog brush and blech first). Flush again. Poke again. Any change?

Thanks. That's what I wondered. They've been thoroughly cleaned with a metal skewer, and there was no obstruction. No difference afterwards. I'd originally wondered if they'd been mis-cast, but I'm coming round to the suggestion that it's a problem with the drainage.
[automerge]1602942025[/automerge]

Have you ever seen it flush correctly, some pans are faulty from new?
If so, has it deteriorated slowly over the years or suddenly failed?

Is it an older W.C with larger outlet in the pan, if so does it still have the original higher volume cistern with it?
Older WC pans need the larger flush volume.

If the WC pan has been moved or is a more modern one, offset pan connectors on the outlet as well as flexi pipes can cause restrictions.

It's possible part of the thin plastic flush diaphragm may have got down into the spray area.

Thanks. It's never worked properly in the 23 years I've lived here. A good plumber (well, I thought he was good) installed a new flush system a few years ago, but was baffled about why stuff was reluctant to go down the pan.
[automerge]1602942177[/automerge]
Thank you everybody for your helpful replies, which I appreciate. I think it possibly could be a drainage issue, which is not one I'd considered. I'll try to post a video this weekend so you can see what's happening.

Cheers!

 

[Ric2013]

It's close-coupled (i.e. cistern sits directly onto pan) and yet it has a chain to flush? Or was the 'chain' bit a figure of speech?

 

[Toiletdrip]

It's close-coupled (i.e. cistern sits directly onto pan) and yet it has a chain to flush? Or was the 'chain' bit a figure of speech?

Sorry for any confusion caused. It was a figure of speech. On reflection, I should have said something like "flush the loo". Ooops!

 

[Toiletdrip]

Thanks, again, for your helpfulness, folks. Having examined it as best I can, it does seem that the problem may be with drainage. There is a - mostly buried - pipe from the back of this loo which goes into the drainage pipe in the back of the loo in the adjoining room, before draining down an outside pipe. The water in the faulty loo discolours slightly if not used for a couple of days, which perhaps suggests that it is at a lower level than the other loo, and that some drainage from the other loo leaks into it.

Duh - I've been missing the obvious, I think.

My thinking now - as a total amateur - is that raising the faulty loo a little by placing some sort of small plinth underneath it could sort the problem. As I am disabled, it would help me to have it raised by a centimetre or so.

Or is there a better solution, please, and am I missing the obvious yet again?

Thanks.

 

[Ric2013]

If there is (eg) a backslope on the pipe and placing the pan on a plinth would allow the pipework to be corrected easily, that is a very good idea.

Not the prettiest option, but if the extra height is useful and you don't object to a plinth, then technically not wrong. I have done this myself to minimise disruption when carrying out a toilet swapout in a rented property as it was not realistic to relocate the pipework with 4 tenants in the house and no other loo available to them.

If you have the toilet removed at any time, pop it in the garden, fill the cistern and test flush it. If it works well when not connected to the waste pipework, then you can be sure the pan itself is not the problem.

 

[Ben-gee]

I had a similar problem on the cloakroom on my current job and for lots of reasons a plinth was the ideal solution here too.
I constructed a strong box from treated timber and 12mm hardiebacker which was then tiled.
This allowed the lavatory to function properly and made it easier to use for the lady with dodgy knees.

 

[Toiletdrip]

If there is (eg) a backslope on the pipe and placing the pan on a plinth would allow the pipework to be corrected easily, that is a very good idea.

Not the prettiest option, but if the extra height is useful and you don't object to a plinth, then technically not wrong. I have done this myself to minimise disruption when carrying out a toilet swapout in a rented property as it was not realistic to relocate the pipework with 4 tenants in the house and no other loo available to them.

If you have the toilet removed at any time, pop it in the garden, fill the cistern and test flush it. If it works well when not connected to the waste pipework, then you can be sure the pan itself is not the problem.

Thank you. That's reassuring. The idea of trying it in the garden is a brilliant one, and not one which would have occurred to me. That will be worth doing to confirm that a plinth should do the job. Cheers!
[automerge]1603103018[/automerge]

I had a similar problem on the cloakroom on my current job and for lots of reasons a plinth was the ideal solution here too.
I constructed a strong box from treated timber and 12mm hardiebacker which was then tiled.
This allowed the lavatory to function properly and made it easier to use for the lady with dodgy knees.

Thank you. That's also reassuring. I'll show that picture to the handyman working here and suggest that he may do something along those lines. I've got two thirds of a sheet of marine ply here not doing anything, so it may as well go to a good use should the "garden test" prove that the loo works fine.
[automerge]1603127896[/automerge]
I've had a good look at the situation with the loo, and I'm now convinced it is a drainage problem.

The loo in the main bathroom flushes perfectly. The problem loo is the other side of the wall, in another room. There is a large and solid pipe going through the wall and connecting the problem loo to the wastepipe at the back of the functioning loo. On measuring what I can of this, the pipe connecting the two loos slopes downwards to the problem loo. It seems a no-brainer that this is probably the source of the problem.

A plinth for the problem loo seems like a good solution. My only concern is that if the wastepipe behind the loo is lifted, there will be a dip in the pipe between the loos (or pipes, as I guess a new one will be needed on the problem loo side, coupled to the existing pipe) where waste may gather. Or am I worrying unnecessarily, do you think?

Thanks again for your help, folks.

 

[Ric2013]

Well, we all know that the answer is that ideally there would be a slight downslope all the way to the sewer, of at least 18mm per metre. Realistically, as long as there is no upslope, you would probably be fine.

Beyond that, you are taking a risk. However, if you are improving matters, then it would seem logical that you probably won't be making anything worse than it is already. A slight dip in the pipe may clog occasionally. Whether it will it do it once a week or once a decade is hard to say.

What I would suggest is ideally get it sorted properly. If you aren't going to do that, consider whether getting it done properly in the future is going to mean you have to undo all your improvement work and start again, or whether you are happy to risk doing half a job now because you don't mind doing the other half in the future. Which will depend on your circumstances.

I wouldn't want to push you down either path as you seem quite open-minded and don't seem to object to tinkering, just make sure you think carefully before proceeding and best of luck

... and remember that on UKplumbersforums we like to be 'paid' by people letting us know how it goes in the end.

 

[Toiletdrip]

Well, we all know that the answer is that ideally there would be a slight downslope all the way to the sewer, of at least 18mm per metre. Realistically, as long as there is no upslope, you would probably be fine.

Beyond that, you are taking a risk. However, if you are improving matters, then it would seem logical that you probably won't be making anything worse than it is already. A slight dip in the pipe may clog occasionally. Whether it will it do it once a week or once a decade is hard to say.

What I would suggest is ideally get it sorted properly. If you aren't going to do that, consider whether getting it done properly in the future is going to mean you have to undo all your improvement work and start again, or whether you are happy to risk doing half a job now because you don't mind doing the other half in the future. Which will depend on your circumstances.

I wouldn't want to push you down either path as you seem quite open-minded and don't seem to object to tinkering, just make sure you think carefully before proceeding and best of luck

. and remember that on UKplumbersforums we like to be 'paid' by people letting us know how it goes in the end.

Thank you. That's excellent advice, and much appreciated.

I think you're spot on about it not making things worse than they are already, and I hope it will be improved. I also think I'm going to go for half a job at the moment, and hope for the best. I've just had the main bathroom redecorated, and I don't fancy having some of the wall hacked away. I'm aware that it's going to be far from what a good professional would do, but perhaps it will work well enough. If not, I'll have a rethink, and get it done properly. But at the moment money is a bit tight, and is being spent on necessary improvements around the rest of the house.

I will certainly return to say how it goes. I'm grateful for the excellent advice I've received here. It wouldn't have registered with me that it was a drainage problem without the advice and expertise on this forum.

 

[Toiletdrip]

Just a report back to say thank you again for such good and friendly advice, and to post an update.

The handyman - who had initially trained as a plumber - tried everything, including totally new gubbins in the cistern and digging into the wall to examine the piping. In the end, he decided yesterday that the loo was - to be frank - cr*p! This morning he installed a new loo. It flushes perfectly!

He has taken away the old one. He says that having spent hours on it, he is going to take enormous delight in smashing up the flipping thing! (Not exactly his words as I suspect this forum has a censor, but you get the gist...!)

Thanks again to everybody for your generosity with advice. It's much appreciated.

 

[Ric2013]

Just a report back to say thank you again for such good and friendly advice, and to post an update.

The handyman - who had initially trained as a plumber - tried everything, including totally new gubbins in the cistern and digging into the wall to examine the piping. In the end, he decided yesterday that the loo was - to be frank - cr*p! This morning he installed a new loo. It flushes perfectly!

He has taken away the old one. He says that having spent hours on it, he is going to take enormous delight in smashing up the flipping thing! (Not exactly his words as I suspect this forum has a censor, but you get the gist...!)

Thanks again to everybody for your generosity with advice. It's much appreciated.

Excellent news and thanks for coming back. Nothing like a duff pan to result in poor flushing!