Unexplained problem removing tap cover

[hippo49]

Hello. I wonder if anyone can help please. This is my first post.

I am trying to replace a washer on the hot tap (simple pillar type) in my bathroom basin. The basin is an 80 year old basin in Art Deco style original to the house and so I am keen not to break it or the pipe joints below. The tap is original as well I suspect. I have replaced washers before in comparable taps without significant difficulty.

I can't even get started because I cannot get the cover (bonnet?) off despite it having thin flats (actually octagonal) at the bottom which I can get a spanner on to. Because of being ultra cautious I made a mock up of a tool I have seen advertised for loosening the tap-head nut, just to remove the cover. The cover perhaps turned a little although hardly enough to notice. I took off the home made contraption to regroup and then found two surprising things. First the drip had stopped despite the fact that I had not turned off the water at this stage (crazy I know but remember I was only trying to get the cover off). Second, the tap spindle had jammed beyond hand tight despite being completely free before.

So my first thought was that I had somehow screwed the jumper plate into the washer seating. But how could that have happened? I'd imagined that the cover has essentially no connection to the "works" inside the cover.

I don't seem to be able to reverse the process to free up the spindle.

So my questions are:

1) Does anyone have an explanation for the above?
2) Could there be reverse threads involved such that anticlockwise turning has tightened something up?
3) Should I have fully opened the tap before I started as my ancient Home DIY book suggests and why would that make any difference? (I consulted it after all the above!)
4) How much can I apply force either to go forwards or backwards?

I am not keen to do anything until I understand what has gone on inside that tap!

Thanks for any help anyone can give me.

 

[rpm]

A photo of one tap from around 3-4ft away would help here. A tap of that age should be a simple design however it has been there awhile so may put up a fight to start with.

 

[hippo49]

Thanks for your interest. Here are three photos I had already. Nothing special about the tap I don't think.

 

[Stigster]

It's possible that the hole in the shroud you just about moved is not perfectly centred and after moving it a little bit it is binding against the spindle. Please do as rpm suggests and provide us with a photo if at all possible. It might be a simple job but a picture often speaks a thousand words as I am sure you understand.

 

[hippo49]

It's possible that the hole in the shroud you just about moved is not perfectly centred and after moving it a little bit it is binding against the spindle. Please do as rpm suggests and provide us with a photo if at all possible. It might be a simple job but a picture often speaks a thousand words as I am sure you understand.

Hi Stigster. I posted three photos last night. I hope they are visible to everyone?

 

[Stigster]

I don't think your post had gone through the moderator queue when I asked for pictures. Yes, they are visible now.

Yes, that shroud should just unscrew but it's very common to have these seized in place after many years of use and obviously yours has too.

If they are truly immovable then the only way I have had consistent success in removing them is with good blast from my blowtorch. Getting it nice and hot will almost certainly make it possible to unscrew. They do unscrew anti-clockwise looking from the top so you have been trying the right direction but as you know, it's well seized on.

That's the only surefire way I know to get it loose.

 

[hippo49]

I don't think your post had gone through the moderator queue when I asked for pictures. Yes, they are visible now.

Yes, that shroud should just unscrew but it's very common to have these seized in place after many years of use and obviously yours has too.

If they are truly immovable then the only way I have had consistent success in removing them is with good blast from my blowtorch. Getting it nice and hot will almost certainly make it possible to unscrew. They do unscrew anti-clockwise looking from the top so you have been trying the right direction but as you know, it's well seized on.

That's the only surefire way I know to get it loose.

Thanks. Yes, I've read about using a blow torch. Also boiling water. As a halfway house I have an electric hot air gun.

I'd still like to understand why the spindle has got so seized, given that I hardly was aware of turning the cover at all and yet the spindle has gone from completely ok to hand-seized. That's what made me wonder, and fear, that I've somehow screwed the washer seat into the jumper disc. I just can't think of a mechanism to explain the results. I'd rather understand what's going on before I try again to turn the cover one way or the other. I don't want to do more damage.

Do you think there's any significance in the fact that I didn't open the tap before starting on the cover?

If it was your off-centre hole theory, surely it would give at least some hint of moving by hand.

 

[rpm]

Is it at all possible that the tool you made has squashed the shroud slightly and it is binding on something underneath?

 

[hippo49]

Is it at all possible that the tool you made has squashed the shroud slightly and it is binding on something underneath?

I'd say that's not possible, no. I had a spanner on the octagonal "nut" part at the bottom of the shroud but I'd have thought nowhere near tightly enough to squash the shroud even slightly. Anyway the spanner only had contact with the nut part which as you see is very shallow. Also this is 1930s quality, not 2020 quality! So, good idea but I don't really think that's it.

I could resort to trying to take apart one of the other comparable taps just to see if there's anything odd about the internal detail but I don't really want to have to do that! I think I'd try the heat idea first although I'm still cautious about trying anything further until I understand what's going on.....!

 

[moonlight]

You may have inadvertently with your tool, if was connected underneath the tap head pulled the inners higher/ or lower depending on your tool? I would turn off the water, take off the head with the small screw shown in your picture. Put a piece of rubber or leather over the spout, box spanner on top that and use your usual spanner on the shroud as leverage. I would use boiling water rather than a blow torch. If you make the tap too hot and you don't manage to take it apart the washer could be damage and the water not shut off. Good luck.

 

[hippo49]

You may have inadvertently with your tool, if was connected underneath the tap head pulled the inners higher/ or lower depending on your tool? I would turn off the water, take off the head with the small screw shown in your picture. Put a piece of rubber or leather over the spout, box spanner on top that and use your usual spanner on the shroud as leverage. I would use boiling water rather than a blow torch. If you make the tap too hot and you don't manage to take it apart the washer could be damage and the water not shut off. Good luck.

Thanks, moonlight. Well, the mock-up tool that I mentioned in my first post was essentially the spanner and box spanner arrangement that you describe with the addition of a clamp to screw the spanner and box spanner towards each other so that there was no torque on the basin or pipework below. I don't think that's likely to have pulled the innards up or down but who knows?

Thanks for the advice against using hot air. I think I'll have to try the boiling water idea despite not really knowing what's going on. Might wait till after the weekend - I don't like trying anything to do with plumbing out of plumber's hours!

 

[Ben-gee]

As moonlight alluded to , your contraption only needed to be out of perfect horizontal alignment to affect the upward/downward motion as the spanner’s brought together. In all likelihood this would have happened.

 

[plunger123]

I think I know whats happened here. Does the handle come off easy enough, ?This is a rising headpart. So you probably have an 18 tpi thread that is on the headpart. By trying to get the trim piece or shroud off you have actually turned the headpart out. If you continued you will find the shroud actually doesnt come off. The entire headpart will screw out the tap but the shroud will still remain intact. You could do that to get to the washer but it will prevent you from tightening up the gland. The simplest way to loosen the shroud is too shock it on the indexes (octagon piece) with a small nylon hammer or I just use the back of a screwdriver but I wrap some cloth on the shroud.
What has happened is you have actually inadvertently tightened the washer more by vitue of screwing the tap plus shroud out . It has pushed the washer down on the seat tighter. Are you sure the tap is open full when you tried to loosen it.
Heat from a heat gun will be very unlikely to damage the chrome and will also help to loosen the shroud. It has seized to the headpart.I normally just use a blow torch but I know how much to heat it.
Good luck .
Eugene from S Africa.

 

[hippo49]

I think I know whats happened here. Does the handle come off easy enough, ?This is a rising headpart. So you probably have an 18 tpi thread that is on the headpart. By trying to get the trim piece or shroud off you have actually turned the headpart out. If you continued you will find the shroud actually doesnt come off. The entire headpart will screw out the tap but the shroud will still remain intact. You could do that to get to the washer but it will prevent you from tightening up the gland. The simplest way to loosen the shroud is too shock it on the indexes (octagon piece) with a small nylon hammer or I just use the back of a screwdriver but I wrap some cloth on the shroud.
What has happened is you have actually inadvertently tightened the washer more by vitue of screwing the tap plus shroud out . It has pushed the washer down on the seat tighter. Are you sure the tap is open full when you tried to loosen it.
Heat from a heat gun will be very unlikely to damage the chrome and will also help to loosen the shroud. It has seized to the headpart.I normally just use a blow torch but I know how much to heat it.
Good luck .
Eugene from S Africa.

Hi Eugene I'm absolutely fascinated by your answer because I've tried to think from the beginning how the tap spindle could have tightened, feeling that that is key to the whole story.

So is what your are saying that the shroud has not started to come off the head part but that the shroud plus head part has all started to unwind in one piece from the base of the tap? I can well see that that would drive the washer into its seat and tighten up the spindle. And no, I did not open the tap at all before I started - I admitted that in my first post! Wish I had. But the shroud and head part wouldn't be designed to be joined would they? That would be a pointless design. I guess you're saying that they've got corroded together and that the whole lot has unscrewed (slightly, and with difficulty) from the base of the tap rather than the shroud unscrewed from the head. For that to be the case the shroud must be tighter on the head than the head is on the base, which I would never have dreamt of.

Have I got that right? If so, it's just as well I didn't get very far before stopping because - having also admitted I didn't have the water switched off - I'd have had quite a flood and a quick dash up to the loft to switch off the hot water!

As well as fascinated I'm annoyed with myself for not working it out myself - if you're right, that is!

 

[moonlight]

I would say this shroud will need to be unscrewed.

 

[plunger123]

Yes I think that is the problem. Just smack the shroud to shock it loose. You will need to hit it all round.

 

[hippo49]

Yes I think that is the problem. Just smack the shroud to shock it loose. You will need to hit it all round.

Hi again plunger123 and moonlight. Thanks to you and others for continued interest in this problem.

But if the theory is correct that the spindle won't turn because I've actually wound it down hard on to the washer seat because the shroud is corroded on to the tap head, then if I try again to unscrew the shroud after gently whacking it (as I was trying to do in the first place) there is quite a risk that the shroud and tap head will continue to turn together, the effect being that I will wind the spindle even harder on to the washer seat and I'd be even worse off?

So, would I not be better to try to reverse the process of winding down the spindle by turning (tightening) the shroud/tap head again clockwise a little, and so hopefully freeing up the spindle again, then open the tap fully as I should have done in the first place? Then I could attack the shroud/tap head again.

Alternatively I wonder if I should put a spanner on the tap handle cross and try to turn it anticlockwise to open the tap fully. before attacking the shroud/tap head again. At least then if I got the shroud/tap head combo off together I would be able to tackle them remote from the sink and pipe.

What do you think?

 

[plunger123]

Just be sure you can turn the water off. Also if its a cold tap if the geyser is higher than the tap and the vacuum breakers dont work you can get hot water back syphoning through. I would just try cranking the tap open and then just carry on turning it out. If the waters off and it comes out headpart and shroud you can then work on it easier. You could also spray some wd40 down the hole in the shroud and let it sit overnight to try loosen it up. Ive never done that because as a plumber time is important. I have often taken it out and then it allows you to whack it easier.Sometimes by turning it with a crescent spanner you can actually pinch the shroud so it actually makes it tighter on the headpart. Its hard to explain but the shroud is thin walled so if you turn it with a crescent spanner it actually makes the shroud oval and tightens it. Ive even taken a water pump pliers and held the thread and then turned the shroud off when I have it out the tap.But be careful if you do this. But i believe if time is on your hands I would try the lubricant spray first then a bit of heat and some smacking and it should come off.
Dont be intimidated by it.

 

[moonlight]

If you look at this tap insert you will see the bottom below the thread has a hexagonal nut. If you have wound your tap so tight down on the seating, it could have dropped too low. And unless it's in the correct position you will not be able to lift it. You need to bite the bullet. Top off, hot water on shroud. Get you spanner or tool on the shroud. You have nothing to loose. If you are concerned this is not a job you are comfortable with. Find a plumber. We all have ways of getting these open. Good luck

 

[Stigster]

I normally just use a blow torch but I know how much to heat it.

Same here, I'm not talking about nuking it with a torch, just giving it a bit of a quick blast and a bit of a waft with the flame. If it doesn't come loose, go at it a bit more. I can use a blowtorch to form some types of plastic pipe without burning it even using MAPP gas so heating a tap is no worries for me at all and the same for most plumbers who've had to do this kind of thing countless times before I'm sure.

Apologies to OP for me not being clear enough on that. I appreciate my "nice and hot" could certainly mean different things to different people. I'll try to be clearer on that one in future.

 

[hippo49]

Hi everyone who helped me with this thread. SUCCESS!

I've been very busy with other things this past week and so hadn't got back to the job until today, so I apologise if you all thought I'd finished it and forgotten to thank you.

In the end I tried the method of tapping the shroud all round on the flats using the plastic handle of a screwdriver and then using boiling water on a cloth to heat up the shroud. That looseened the shroud in an instant, so much so that I could hardily believe that the torque I'd applied previously didn't loosen it.

Getting the tap handle off was no real problem - I just forced it off by unscrewing the shroud upwards against a pair of pliers around the spindle.

Next I had to loosen the spindle. You'll remember that that had tightened hard on to the washer seat because I hadn't opened the tap before starting. That came fairly easily too.

Finallly, just when I thought the biggest challenge was still to come, the taphead practically fell out in my hand! I can only conclude that I had in fact loosened the taphead slightly before the whole lot seized up because of the spindle seizing on the washer seat.

Whatever the reason I'm just glad it's done. Thank you all again for your interest and help. Not only have you saved me a lot of money but also I've learnt something: never again will I try to replace a washer without first opening the tap fully.

Now for the next dripping tap....!

 

[Stigster]

using boiling water on a cloth to heat up the shroud. That looseened the shroud in an instant, so much so that I could hardily believe that the torque I'd applied previously didn't loosen it.


never again will I try to replace a washer without first opening the tap fully.

Well done mate!

When metal expands and contracts at different temperatures the forces can be pretty incredible. By expanding the metal of the shroud using heat, huge forces are generated and it was easy for it to break free from the corrosion, gunk, scale or whatever it was holding it firmly in place. Heat does wonders for stuck parts in all things mechanical. Sometimes the process is used in reverse too, not so much in plumbing but in engineering and manufacturing, some parts are firmly joined by making two parts a ludicrously tight fit, heating one part, joining them (things like a wheel on a spindle) whilst scorching hot and then letting it cool and shrink into place.

As for opening the tap, we would normally isolate the supply, open the tap to prove that it is actually isolated (never, ever assume!) and leave it in that position whild doing the work.

Great to hear you've got a stubborn job done and learned something along the way. That's why I love the forums because I learn things here all the time too.