Urinal Fountain Project - Advice

[D Byrne]

Hi all,

My name's Dominic - I'm posting this in the general thread as it probably covers a few bases, and thought I'd check this forum here for some possible advice.

This project will probably sound quite odd to many, and won't make much sense in a way (in terms of a functional plumbing project), but I'm an artist in Sydney who is planning an exhibition in a gallery at the end of June involving plumbing.

The premise of the show is a single line of steel/aluminium urinal troughs (ATTACHED: Basic diagram of the side view of what I imagine the mechanism may look like, stock image of type of urinal I'll be making) that follow the cube-like gallery room's walls. I've attached photos of the type of urinal I mean, which is not individual urinals but an uninterrupted strip that will probably cover under half the wall's height and a portion of the floor.

The idea for the exhibition is to create a urinal, that when looked at by the viewer, using motion sensors, will flush itself, the water travelling down into the urinal, through the drain (the opening for a cistern) which will have a water pump and pipe pumping it up until the next viewer comes by to view the work. Essentially, it will be a sculptural work that is cleaning itself upon being seen, a non-functional bathroom that can be "used" by anyone.

As described, you'll notice that there will be no connection to the gallery's plumbing, rather the work will function as its own fountain system, using a cistern for a supply of water at the bottom of the urinal (covered by metal base). And the work will for the above reason DEFINITELY not be used to urinate in.

Nonetheless, due to the fountain nature of this project, perhaps i'm not at the right forum, what I was more interested in asking is that if the below (very basic) design I've planned for the urinal to work is feasible. If there's any tips/advice that can be provided for making something like this work, that'd be much, much appreciated. I have quite a few months to organise, giving time for trial and error etc.

I plan to not purchase actual urinal troughs, instead of having these fabricated, so the shape and technical aspects of the body of the urinal are much simpler than an actual one. Also, I realise this isn't a "motion sensor" forum haha but I've read there are sensors that can be cloaked behind a urinal, which I'll hopefully be able to use. Any advice in regards to this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks heaps, and feel free to ask any questions.



Cheers,


Dominic.

 

[Ric2013]

Hmm.

If you had the cistern at a higher level, you could use gravity to power the flush. Is that a possibility? As it is, you may need a powerful pump to allow sufficient flow, especially if you aren't using wide-bore pipe, as it looks like you are going to need force a lot of water through to get sufficient flow.

 

[D Byrne]

Ah ok, thanks for this info! That could possibly be an option if I can make ample space for it without impeding on the design.

So, the water pumps used usually for private fountains are not usually strong enough to create a flush? Instead just a steady stream?

What are the benefits of wide-bore pipe specifically and why do you think it might not suit this design?

Cheers mate,

Dominic.

 

[oz-plumber]

Is it going to be a single urinal?
Is it going to be a standard size?
What are the dimensions of the piece you are making?

Motion sensors control the flush of many urinals these days.
So that should not be a problem.

Pumps - just depends on what amount of water flow you require and the height from the sump to the top of the urinal

 

[D Byrne]

Yeah, so it's going to be a single-file of the urinal trough that runs along (most likely at this point) three walls, but with multiple spots for flush openings. In terms of size, it'd be mimicking a standard urinal you might find in the public toilet of an airport/stadium, in that it will run around the corners of a wall.

Although specific measurements have not been taken, I imagine in terms of height the urinal would be around 1600mm (so the pipe would be a bit smaller than this), and it would have a depth of around 400 mm but only at the bottom (where you'd usually stand atop the grill). The walls of the gallery form a cube shape, i'd say the room is about 5 x 4 metres.

 

[rpm]

The pipe size from the tank to the top might depend on the choice of pump.

 

[Ric2013]

The narrower the bore of the pipe, the more resistance to flow of water, the more pressure the pump has to develop to give the required flow. I don't see a problem with using wide-bore pipe, just your sketch seemed to indicate a narrow pipe.

 

[D Byrne]

Ah that makes enough sense, yeah sorry the diagram was a bit inaccurate. Will look into this type of pipe then, thanks!

Also, is it quite common in urinal systems like this for there to be water have filled the whole pipe constantly, with a valve at the top holding it from being released until activated by the motion sensor? This is instead of the motion sensor activating the pump every time, and there being a delay as the water has to travel up the pipe.
I feel like I've seen the former, but thought maybe this is too much pressure on the water pump or valve if there is constantly water inside the pipe.

Cheers.

 

[Ric2013]

Running the pump constantly will more electricity, but unlikely to damage the pipe or valve IMO as I doubt the pump will produce more than mains pressure, even against a closed valve.
BUT I suspect you'll struggle to find a pump designed to work like this. The question may end up being how long you actually need a pump to last.

However, I think I have an idea that may be a way forward? Put an expansion vessel (look it up) on the pipe between the pump and the valve. Have the pump shut off when full pressure has been reached. When the valve opens, the expansion vessel could supply the flow for the few seconds it may take to allow the pump to detect a loss of pressure and start up. This way, the viewer would see an instant flow of water without having a pump run against a closed valve.

 

[D Byrne]

Thanks for this idea, mate. Will look into expansion vessels!

The work is only gonna be running for a few weeks, about 6 hours per day for about 4 days per week. So it may be the case where the pump's longevity is less an issue.

 

[Ric2013]

Yeah, I'm wondering if you could set it up a bit like a common type of private water supply pumped from a bore hole or well in which the pump sets up a pressure and switches on and off simply to maintain that pressure.

 

[D Byrne]

Ah ok, in that scenario is the expansion vessel needed or would this be without? Will look into.

 

[Ric2013]

Needed. Though the one I worked on had it incorporated into the pump.

 

[oz-plumber]

The best thing you can do is go to an irrigation company.
Bring in a design of what you intend to do and how many urinals you want to flush at once.
They will specify the pipe size, the design, the pump size, flow of water required and everything else.
Tell them that you are going to recycle the water for flushing from a reservoir built into the bottom of the urinals.

If you want an instant flush, you will need a pump with a pressure switch on it and solenoid valves at each urinal or bank of urinals.

There are so many parameters that need sorting before you proceed designing the system.

- do all the urinals flush at once
- does a small bank, or only one, of the urinals flush at once
- does each urinal need a solenoid valve.

Water flow would be minimal, pump head would be minimal.

It's just a matter of you telling us what and how ypu want the system to work.
It could be very simple plumbing wise or it could be very intricate plumbing wise.

It just depends on what and how you want the system to work

 

[D Byrne]

Thanks for that advice, mate. So, irrigation companies are able to design specific systems even if not related to watering crops, etc? I didn't know they did that!

A bank or single urinal would flush and be activated by a motion sensor that would set off this process. So, never would all urinal banks be in use, unless there was a person in front of each.

Yeah, I had a feeling water flow would not be too heavy, it would ideally be a flow that lasts 3 seconds or so.

I noticed you're "oz-plumber", if you know of any trusted irrigation companies here in Sydney/Aus I'd be more than willing to contact them, otherwise will get researching myself!

Thanks heaps, mate.

 

[stevetheplumber]

id use a pressure operated caravan pump on a 12v transformer