Valliant - Viessman or Worcester

[Fozzie Bear]

My 18year old Potterton Profile 60e is coming to the end of its life and I need to replace it with a condensing boiler. I have an open vented system and underfloor heating with two "zone Packs" incorporating a thermostatic mixing valve and pump serving a four bedroom bunglalow with a bathroom and showe room. I understand to work at it most efficient then the return water temperture on a condensing boiler should be lower than 57c. I have had some advice that the zone packs will need to be modified by removing the thermostatic mixers and pumps. Does this sound right?
Also I have read a lot of reviews and most heating engineers seem to recommend Viessmann, Valliant and Worcester in that order. I know plumbers and heating engineers have favourites depending if they are approved installers for a particular make, however I have been offered a 7 year warranty on the Worcester although I have not had a formal quote yet.(Someone said on another forum I would have to pay a premium through a Worcester approved fitter to get that warranty?)

I dont want a combi and my vented system currently works ok, although I am not agains a sealed and pressurised system if that is better.
I have also heard that since being taken over by Bosch, Worcester are not as good as they originally were. That said what are peoples views on the above three boiler makes and how do they compare for replacements and spare parts eg PCB's Fans etc, the sort of thigs that go wrong?
Any advice galdly received as it is a minfield when trying to choose.

Fozzie

 

[Roger Welton]

AS you seem to already appreciate you can speak to 10 plumbers and get 10 opinions regarding boilers, my favorite at the moment is remeha, go with the chap you felt most comfortable with and what ever he recommended (within reason!) as he will be familiar with fitting them.

If your system is working well at the moment then I would see no reason to change to a sealed system (more to go wrong), and the boilers are a little cheaper.

The lower the return temperature to a condensing boiler will make it run more efficiently you will still need a thermostatic mixer on the flow manifolds to your ufh though to protect the pipework / screed.

 

[smtplumbing]

just letting you know valliant are doing cash back offers i think £100 and £80 to system dont quote me on that but i one of my customer has just had it thanks

 

[Millsy 82]

Vaillant used to be brilliant our company fits quite a few but the quality seems to have dropped quite alot. Plus if you want an odd part their parts service is a joke.

Worcester Our company fit loads of these on council contracts and not many seem to come back in but still quality seems to have dropped off parts service is spot on.

Viessman Good boilers i've installed a few (all combi's though) and they seem ok but around us nobody seems to like working on them as soon as the customers say its viessman they dont turn up. Good for us as I work on them.

Out of all three I would go for a worcester. Alot of people around me fit Alpha's they seem ok as a cheaper option

 

[hammers4spanner]

Anyone reccomends worcester then imo they have no idea what they are on about ,,,,complete and utter rubbish fit loads on contract and replace loads that are not even 10 year old ,Worcester a company living off past reputation !!

 

[jtsplumbing]

Lots of options, I now look at price and warranty, have a look at Sime (10 year warranty) [email protected] www.sime.ltd.uk

 

[dancinplumba]

Warranty's are great, but if you have lots of breakdowns it becomes a pain in the bum
imo

 

[hammers4spanner]

are those sime's any good??
I would imagine most custs had never heard of it so prob be unsure of having it .

 

[TBServices]

Anyone reccomends worcester then imo they have no idea what they are on about ,,,,complete and utter rubbish fit loads on contract and replace loads that are not even 10 year old ,Worcester a company living off past reputation !!

Agreed!


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[Roger Welton]

I would guess no based on the older ones I've seen!

 

[jtsplumbing]

Fitted a few of these no probs yet, price as come down from when they first came on market (Murelle) may-be they got somthing right this time, any way not my problem for next 10 years.

 

[tamz]

just letting you know valliant are doing cash back offers i think £100 and £80 to system dont quote me on that but i one of my customer has just had it thanks

£100 for installer afaik Just got a bundle of promo sy..stuff in the other day.

Anyone reccomends worcester then imo they have no idea what they are on about ,,,,complete and utter rubbish fit loads on contract and replace loads that are not even 10 year old ,Worcester a company living off past reputation !!

Best boiler for rising pipes tho. Think about yourself as well as the customer. The boiler itself is reliable enough. Only had a few breakdowns of the couple of hundred i've fitted. As reliable as any other so called top brand and they sell themselves. I agree they are trading on reputation mainly but they certainly get the brand known. Btw they have gone back to the metal frame on juniors and Si's. Not as good as the original but better than the plastic effort.

Lots of options, I now look at price and warranty, have a look at Sime (10 year warranty) [email protected] www.sime.ltd.uk

If their past boilers are anything to go by you will need the 10 year warranty. Usually pushed cheap by the independents. Cheap for a reason.

IMO

 

[Dannypipe]

I got a bad feeling the minute I took a WB Si out the box and noticed the frame was no longer metal but plastic. What utter cheap skates. What did it save them, a tenner?

The last Si I fitted has broken down twice in the warranty period.....to be fair to Worcester, they came out quickly and fixed it.

I've just been asked to fit one, and I will do so....but they aren't the amazing, bomb proof boiler they'd like people to think they are. In all honesty I think all modern boilers aren't as reliable as their ancestors.

My next boiler change is going to take the place of a fully functioning Potterton which is about 20 years old. I doubt the new boiler going in it's place will last that long.

 

[adam84]

In terms of quality i think all 3 are of the same quality, the only thing seperating them is price and warranty round our neck of the woods vailant are dearest but slightly better than the others with a 3 year guarentee, the veissmann are the cheapest but with a standard 5 year warranty and the worchester is middle of the road price wise and up there with veissmann on quality but slightly dearer. ive recently gone back to fitting worchester after one of my customers got a random letter from an other maintainance company saying they were aware that a veismann had been fitted six years previously and that they were happy to do any follow up work, so i called the company and asked them where they got my customers info and they said the boiler manufacturer gave it to them! so its not enough that we promote and install their products now they bypass us for other companys.

 

[hammers4spanner]

When did they go back to metal frame? I have fitted three this week and all were plastic frame still,i personally dont offer the cust them unless they ask as have had a few conk on on several occasions within first couple years and even have two custs get so fed up with them that removed and replaced ( no complaints from me £££££)
Problem being with combi's these days is that like cars are more technical than ever and anything with more working parts will have a higher likelyhood of a breakdown,,, I still personally think the old baxi back boilers or most reputable heat only boiler on either gravity/unvented is better ,,,,can never understand why installers recommend combi upgrades on theese systems ,,,,makes me think if they actually know how to do a heat only boiuler lol.

 

[Roger Welton]

But think of the scrap value in the cylinder :frown2:

 

[thereisawizza]

are those sime's any good??
I would imagine most custs had never heard of it so prob be unsure of having it .

I fitted a sime combi last week. Whilst there was nothing wrong with it per se, it was like fitting a combi from 15 years ago! Extremely heavy, no jig, no template, wierd order of pipework and just generally old scholl technology! Still, has 5 year warranty but the proof will be in the pudding.

PS don't forget guys, fit a Vaillant and they will go out of their way to rob the ongoing service from you as way of a thank you for fitting their product!

PPS if you get a Worcester, expect to change the fan soon....

PPPS (enough now, please!) If you fit a Viessmann on a system with a 3 port, you need an additional resistor (tap the rep up for them) to fit accross switch live and neutral at the boiler otherwise the stray 70v DC generated by a H/well 3 port will cause nuisance running of the boiler!

 

[tamz]

When did they go back to metal frame? I have fitted three this week and all were plastic frame still

Got one 2 weeks ago on an SI then Monday had a plastic frame and yesterday another metal frame so i guess it is just changing stock. Still got the stupid pita condensate connection tho.

 

[Millsy 82]

Anyone reccomends worcester then imo they have no idea what they are on about ,,,,complete and utter rubbish fit loads on contract and replace loads that are not even 10 year old ,Worcester a company living off past reputation !!

All boilers are like that now not just worcester but out of the 3 listed that would be the 1 that I would have. Our company has fitted 6 a week for the last year if they go down I get sent out before we call Worcester I have been out to 5 or 6 in that time so not too bad they are also relativley easy to work on (not as easy as vaillant) But I do agree they are living off past reputation.

What boiler would you recommend I would never recommend

Sime because there old models were shocking and having the diverter right at the back who thought of that.

Ideal because Icos Isar. I stupidly fitted an isar for a family member what a mistake but it was cheap and he couldnt afford much more. The logics might be better but wouldnt want to recomend it to anybody.

Glowworm are a rubbish to work on and part of the vaillant group so parts service is rubbish.

Baxi/ Potterton dont really work on many newer versions so cant really comment on them.

Heatline are just shocking in every way Used to do alot of warranty work for them.

 

[adam84]

My older sister had one of the first heatline vizos in a house she moved into some years ago and had loads of trouble with it so she signed up to a BG contract (she couldnt afford my rates) any way the BG engineer turned up laptop in hand and said he coulbnt find any reference to that make of boiler on his system.

 

[Millsy 82]

My older sister had one of the first heatline vizos in a house she moved into some years ago and had loads of trouble with it so she signed up to a BG contract (she couldnt afford my rates) any way the BG engineer turned up laptop in hand and said he coulbnt find any reference to that make of boiler on his system.

If its not on there computer they havnt got a clue.

 

[JAH HEATING]

I personally think Worcester are awfull, I've changed 3 boards on them in the last 2 months

How anyone would fit the old CDI's ? Bloody hell, changing them Diverta's was a job and a half !!

My personal choice would be Valliant, fitted loads of them once I had to call them out - had a leak on a section in the boiler ? By the heat ex, was just a black plastic pipe with jubilee clips on. They swapped it for a ridgid section.

Baxi or Main then I'd opt for. Fitted a few Netatecs recently, and touch would have been ok so far. Heard they had a problem with the Gas Valves, but the rep told us the problem has been sorted now,

 

[moogwai]

PPPS (enough now, please!) If you fit a Viessmann on a system with a 3 port, you need an additional resistor (tap the rep up for them) to fit accross switch live and neutral at the boiler otherwise the stray 70v DC generated by a H/well 3 port will cause nuisance running of the boiler!

huh....this is interesting...would this cause the boiler to only get upto around 50 degrees cool down then do the same again? i was speaking to chap who has just had one fitted and is having problems with it. I think he has a circulation problem but just wondered about the effects of this stray 70v you speak of.

 

[bcr5784]

Just to throw a spanner in the works. I am not a plumber and I got widely varying views from the plumbers I talked to. I certainly thought about all 3 brands but in the end I chose an Alpha Intec 18s ( you might need a 28s) system boiler.

Why?

Standard 5 year warranty which extends to 7 years if you get the jig/centrifugal filter. Mind you it's an extra £180 for the jig/filter which means you are actually paying around £80 for the extra warranty. However the boiler is cheaper than the 3 makes you mention to start with

Sophisticated controls - central heating water temperature can be automatically varied depending on outside temperature. Hot water temperature can be controlled separately. Some features I have not seen on other boilers. On the minus side, this made getting quotes more difficult - plumbers seem to prefer what they know, and few know Alpha.

Excellent fault reporting - identifying faulty components/connections individually.

I was also told that spares were cheaper than Worcester Bosch - though I haven't confirmed that myself.

It may not suit you ( and see my other posting about a drawback it has) - but I reckon it's certainly well worth a look.

 

[tamz]

I used to fit a lot of Alphas but went off them as they developed un-ending leaks after a couple of years. The boilers themselves were reliable enough.
They may have sorted the issue with the water leaks , i don't know. I've never fitted any for about 4 or 5 years now.

Most so called budget boilers or brands that some frown upon offer a lot more features than the big names and generally, they are not any less reliable.

The biggest thing for me as an installer is back up and support. If anything does go wrong whilst in the guarantee period i want it attended, no quibble, asap.