Washing Machine Valve Leak Enquiry

[PhilC2]

Dear All
I would be grateful for some advice if possible please, as I am in dispute with my ex-landlord.

I was a tenant in a flat for over 5-years and recently vacated the property, as I have purchased a house.

I hired a removal firm to help me move and on the day the remover disconnected the washing machine. As he did so water gushed from the pipe and he dived under the sink to turn the washing machine valve off. We were there for a further 4-hours or so and there were no further leaks from the washing machine pipe.

I then visited the property 5-days later to help clean it and again there were no signs of a water leak from the washing machine pipe. I received notification from my ex-letting agent the following week that the occupants of the flat below had informed them of a leak from the flat above. This apparently occurred 7-days after the remover disconnected the washing machine.

Apparently a plumber was dispatched to the property and has claimed that the leak emanated from the washing machine pipe and duly turned the water supply off. The ex-landlord is withholding my deposit and claims that I am responsible for the plumbers call out charge and any subsequent claim for building damage that the occupants of the flat below may file.

The ex-landlord also stated that the plumber found water under the kitchen sink. However the lowest point under the kitchen sink is the bottom shelf, which is about 10-inches off the ground. I cannot see, if the washing machine pipe was the source of the leak, how water got to be 10-inches off the ground. The plumber did not remove the toe boards of the kitchen unit under the sink, as I visited the property the day after, I think, and the plastic screws that hold the toe board were in pristine condition and had not been touched.

During our tenancy we have experienced intermittent leaks with the pipes under the sink and I have suggested to the ex-landlord that these were the cause of the leak, especially if the plumber found water on the bottom shelf under the sink.

I would be grateful if someone could please advise as to whether if a washing machine valve is left on could water not leak for 7-days and then suddenly pour out. The flat remained empty during the interim period with nobody to my knowledge using the facilities.

Thank you for your help.


PhilC2

 

[easyt]

Can't see how a tap would leak 10 days later. Think it is irrelevant though. The leak emenated from the existing plumbing which is the landlords responsibility. If the tap was turned off and subsequently leaked it is his problem

 

[PhilC2]

Dear Easyt

Many thanks for your reply. The landlord though is disputing that the dodgy pipes under the sink are the cause. Apparently the plumber that visited said that the washing machine pipe was the cause.

However I think that the plumber saw a puddle, clocked the disconnected washing machine pipe put 2 and 2 together and came up with 5. As stated, if the pipe was the cause then I cannot see how water was found on the shelf under the sink. The whole flat would have to be submerged in 10-inches of water if the pipe was the cause.

Furthermore, when the remover initially disconnected the pipe water gushed out. I cannot see how if the valve was left on water could pour out after a 7-day delay. Is it a possibility that the valve could have been partially turned off? If so I would have thought that there would have been a steady release of water, which we would have picked up on our return 5-days later, not a sudden outpouring 7-days later.

Many thanks,

PhilC2

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

i would take pictures of these 'dodgy pipes' you mention and blame the leak on lack of maintenance or poor installation

if this gets blown out of proportion they you will have a leg to stand on if this pipe work is indeed dodgy as it will show the lack of quality in the installation.

To disconnect a washing machine is simple and rarely cause a leak but assuming the valve was old and failed hence the gush of water, the mains stopcock should halt it and the washing machine valve replaced

 

[PhilC2]

Dear Tom

Many thanks for your reply. Unfortunately I cannot take pictures of the pipes under the sink as our tenancy has ended and we no longer reside at the flat. When dismantling the washing machine, the remover was unable to disconnect the rubber washing machine hose (sorry I called it a pipe in previous postings) from the pipe work under the sink and blamed this on the poor condition of the pipe work.

As stated, we have experienced intermittent leaks from the pipes under the sink but every time we got ready to call the landlord the pipes seemed to silt up and the leak stopped. We have also previously mentioned this to a plumber (I do not know if this is the same plumber) that had visited to inspect a problem with the boiler and he soldered part of the pipes under the sink to stop the leak. This worked for a while and then started again.

However as stated, my ex-landlord is not accepting that the pipe work is the cause. I just wanted some views as to whether if the water valve remained on or partially on, could there be a 7-day delay before water started to pour from the rubber washing machine hose that had been disconnected from the washing machine?

Many thanks,

Phil.

 

[traineedrip]

Can you get pics of the damage to the flat below?

could it not be the original leak water eventually getting through?

ive had a w/m connector blow open due to pressure but cant see that happening days after unless the pressure suddenly changed.

did the plumber actually spot where the leak was from or just evidence of a past leak?

 

[PhilC2]

Dear Traineedrip

If a damage claim from the flat below were to arise then I would request photographic evidence of the damage. At present the ex-landlord has failed to contact the flat below to ascertain whether they are looking to claim for damages, so I do not know the extent of the damage, if any at all.

What I would say is that in the landlord’s emails he mentions that when an emergency plumber was called out after a leak was reported by the flat below, he called on the flat below afterwards but nobody was home. I would have thought that if the leak were major, the flat below would have stayed in to monitor it. The fact that they left the flat indicates that the leak was minor.

It would not have been the original leak as this was always contained in a bowl we put under the pipes and empted.

As stated, none of the past leaks caused any damage. The ex-landlord’s email states:

‘I have spoken to the plumber again and he is very clear that he found a pool of water on the kitchen floor and partly under the kitchen units, the water was obviously emanating from the washing machine pipe.
He says that he tightly closed the hose isolation valve and put the end of the hose in the sink. He also lifted the floor and opened several windows to help with drying out. As a precaution, he turned-off the mains water supply entering the flat. He knocked on the door of No.5, but there was no response’.


As stated, this apparently occurred a week after the washing machine hose was disconnected. I visited the premises 2-days earlier (5-days after the initial disconnection) and there were no signs of leaking from the hose. The remover confirmed that he closed the valve after water initially poured out when he disconnected the hose. Furthermore, the lowest level under the kitchen unit is 10-inches off the ground and directly under the temperamental pipes, where the bowl was always kept.

Many thanks,

Phil.

 

[traineedrip]

Its not clear if the plumber actually saw the pipe leaking or made an assumption... strange it jumped to the cupboard floor.

could the hose have been left in a vertical position, valve letting by slightly, pipe fills over a couple of days and falls down letting the water flow?

Tricky. Id only expect a valve to leak if disturbed after 5 days of being dry. Now your out of the property i cant see how you can find any other leak as a cause? 🙁

Maybe CAB or shelter can advise?

 

[PhilC2]

Dear Traineedrip

Many thanks for looking into this.

No its not clear, I personally feel that he has made an assumption. I think the fact that water has been found on the cupboard floor is one of the main points I need the ex-landlord to answer.

I must admit that a section of the hose was in a vertical position. However as stated, if the valve was open then surely there should have been water on the floor when we visited 5-days later, which there wasn’t. I just cannot understand how, if the valve was left open (as the ex-landlord has stated the plumber said), water could suddenly leak 7-days after disconnection.

You mention that a valve may leak if disturbed after 5-days of being dry and I have wondered whether the discussed items have been moved in any way. Since we vacated the flat we allowed the ex-landlord access to decorate the flat and also the ex-letting agent had been showing prospective tenants round.

Thanks for the advice, I think I will go to CAB and see what they say.

Phil.

 

[dontknowitall]

This, unfortunately, sounds as if it's going to end up with someone losing out completely or a compromise.

Is it worth trying to reach a "solution" with the landlord before you or him become too entrenched in your/his side of the story? Not ideal for either party but sometimes life goes this way.

 

[oldplumber]

as a landlord, I always inspect properties on the day a tenant leaves and ask they resolve any problems there and then. Also you should always isolate elec, gas water etc on leaving and tell the landlord you have done so to prevent this happening.
any new rentals now means the LL has to put your deposit in a scheme that ensures arbritation takes place on these issues. Your best bet is to see cab for help but if a plumber/proffessional supports the landlord then you arent in a strong position after all whos to say you closed the washing machine valve correctly on leaving, and they do weep very easily. You can ask to see the plumbers invoice to see what hes withholding is reasonable though.

 

[PhilC2]

Dear Oldplumber

Many thanks for your reply. Yes, this is what I am trying to ascertain. So water does weep when the valves are not closed correctly. However, as stated, I would have though that this would have been immediate and not suddenly starting after 7-days.

Thank you, I have forwarded the details to CAB and they are looking at it as well as the Deposit Protection Service. I have asked for a copy of the plumber's invoice several times and despite the plumber being called 32-days ago, the landlord has still not produced one. If the landlord was looking for recompense on this then I would have thought that he would have forwarded it on straight away. I am sure that the plumber issued his invoice promptly.

However, I now do not think that there will be an ensuing damage claim. The landlord had claimed that he had tried to contact the flat below to establish this but to no avail. He claimed that he had then asked the Management Company to contact the flat on his behalf. I just called the management company and they confirmed that they had received no such request from the landlord. They also confirmed that as far as they were aware the matter was closed, the flat below did not require repair and he could not see why the landlord was withholding my deposit.

Many thanks,

Phil.