Water Harvester Problem

[Will_C]

Hi all this is my first post so hello first :smilewinkgrin:
I have recently moved into a new build house that has a water harvester installed, it has a storage tank under the garden which then pumps water up to a header tank in the loft which then gravity feeds all the toilets in the house, the problem we are having is that when it fills the header tank from the water harvester it starts making an almighty noise almost sounds like we have a whale in the loft this only happens from the water harvester feed into the tank not the mains feed as this is a different valve.
I have hardly any plumbing experience apart from good old common sense. I've watched the float valve going down and it appears that instead of using water in the tank then filling the float valve goes right down before it triggers the water to start filling so instead of small smooth inputs for water its all of a sudden a massive one or it might even be opening and closing really quickly creating the noise i'm not sure if that can happen.
See the pictures below the water harvester feed is the float on the right hand side, the other one is the mains feed. I'm thinking of trying anther float valve so any recommendations for a valve would be handy.
Thanks for any advice.
And just to add I have had the plumbers who installed it come out twice to look, and both times left it in a worse state and i've had to sort out the mess afterwards so I don't trust there advice or workmanship any more.

 

[stevetheplumber]

ive no experience of rain water harvesting and im suprised to see one ballvalve is mounted outside of the tank ill go with the assumption that this is how they fit them to avoid cross contamination however is does seem strange as a fault could cause a lot of damage
if the above assumption is correct then the smaller ballvalve in the tank must be the rainwater pumped supply yes ?
noise is and delayed filling is usually caused by the diaphram washer iin the ballvalve going hard with age a new washer should be the first thing to try
i cant see from the photos how well the higher ballvalve is fixed if it free to jump about this can also cause noise as it will shut and open rapidly making a hammering sound as i assume this haS only just started after being ok for some time i would imagine is the washer but it wouldnt hurt to check the rules regarding harvesting systems as i cant see why one valve is out side the tank as an overflow pipe prevents contamination by not allowing the water to reach the ballvalves
ivejust put my glasses on and realised the lower ballvalve is a torbeck dont bother rewashering that just get a replace ment

 

[Will_C]

The small one on the left is the mains feed the larger one is the water harvester feed, the noise has always been there' its a brand new house and we have only been in for a month, but the plumbers seem clueless to the problem, we have just turned the water harvester off and have just been using the mains feed. I thought the smaller valve (Mains feed) looked a bit flimsy what would you reccomend to replace that with ?

 

[secret squirrel]

Forgetting for the minute its water harvesting, on an ordinary system I'd change the ball valve.

As its the mains one I'd change like for like, there may be a reason its that one.

Basically I agree with steve.

 

[Will_C]

It's not the mains valve making the noise it's the bigger valve the one that comes from the harvester making the noise.

 

[BLOD]

You can get those ball valves from here, Adjustable Cam Polypropylene Ball Float Valve | Hayes Plastic Engineering

might be worth giving them a call for some advice, but I think I'd just replace it.

 

[stevetheplumber]

at £35 each id be getting the original fitters back
makes no sense to me that the main which is the one you dont want to contaminate is the lower ballvave??id have to check if its the correct way round

 

[snowhead]

The tank is piped up the wrong way.
The mains should be on the valve with the long arm and the harvester should be on the Torbeck (the one on the left)

As it's plumbed now, when the level drops the Torbeck (mains) opens up first and tops the tank up, the plastic valve /float (rainwater) will never see low level.

It should be rainwater on the Torbeck, then when the rainwater fails the level keeps dropping and the plastic valve will open and fill from the mains to a lower level

There's a pump and filter in the garden tank, the filter needs checking regularly.

I've never seen a domestic system but I see commercial ones, is the pipework from the tank labelled Grey Water?

It'll be interesting in the future when people start (accidentally) connecting grey water to taps.

 

[Mike Jackson]

All of the grey water piping should be marked at not more than 1m spacing.

 

[stevetheplumber]

The tank is piped up the wrong way.
The mains should be on the valve with the long arm and the harvester should be on the Torbeck (the one on the left)

As it's plumbed now, when the level drops the Torbeck (mains) opens up first and tops the tank up, the plastic valve /float (rainwater) will never see low level.

It should be rainwater on the Torbeck, then when the rainwater fails the level keeps dropping and the plastic valve will open and fill from the mains to a lower level

There's a pump and filter in the garden tank, the filter needs checking regularly.

I've never seen a domestic system but I see commercial ones, is the pipework from the tank labelled Grey Water?

It'll be interesting in the future when people start (accidentally) connecting grey water to taps.

thanks for confirming my suspicions it seemed wrong to me but ive never done any greywater stuff

 

[AWheating]

all pipework on the recliamed side should be labeled up to clearly identify it. Any toilet cisterns and taps using reclaimed water should be labeled up and there should be a data badge at the incoming mains stating what inside the property is supplied by the rainwater supply. This is to help future engineers avoid cross contamination and users drinking the water.

Its a new house so you should have been given a hand over pack that would contain all the instructions for the water harvesting system and any future maintenance requirements like filter cleaning etc...

if its piped up correctly i would say its either water hammer/vibrations on either the pipework or the valve.

either way its under warantee so get them back to sort it out.

 

[Centralheatking]

Its not really clear from the piccy but does the ball that activates the re-cycled water pump
float on top of the water in the tank ? If so thats wrong when we do this stuff commercially
the ball floats/sits well below the water surface - that way it does not call on the pump
every time the recycled water is used but operates in one longer go thus saving electricity
and extends pump life. If you want to know more about what I mean reply here and I will
elaborate - and they cant touch you for elaborating not even in public !

centralheatking

 

[Centralheatking]

if your in west lancs i could have a look - or devon and cornwall cause i go there a lot

centralheatking

 

[Will_C]

Hi the ball valve does sit below the water surface, i live near Leicester. I will phone the builders tomorrow and put some of this information to them, problem is the plumbers they use are useless, so i need to use someone else which i doubt they will let me do.

 

[Will_C]

Any more advice would be great though so I can go to the builders with it, especially if they broke any regulations, as that could be the way for me to get an independent plumber in and get them to pay for it.

 

[clivetheplumber]

Out of interest I do a few similar installations over here and was wondering why,

1- From the outside holding tank which I'm assuming has a negative head pump, why this is not connected direct to an independent system for toilets & outside taps? is this due to water regs?

2- If you have to use a tank, Why not use an additional one for the grey system, which could be topped up using the negative head pump controlled by a float switch, rather than a ball valve?
This could be set to allow the tank to fill when its 1/2 empty.

 

[Will_C]

I have no idea why it does not directly pump to the toilets, it might have a tankmin the loft because we live in a 3 storey house so plenty of height for a gravity fed system, all i know is its set up totally wrong and the company that installed it dont have a clue either. Its annoying as its a good thing to have if it worked.

 

[Ungren]

Ive only fitted a few wall mounted rain water harvesters but the ones i have fitted only use the mains water as a top up via a solenoid and float arm fitted at the lower part of the tank. Otherwise if the floats operate at the same height the mains will always be the only thing that tops the tank up. The only things that ive found capable of making that much noise in the collector is the rainwater pump (noisy things and even more so if mounted incorrectly) water hammer from the incoming main, or perhaps a fault on the solenoid (never come across that yet)

Hope this helps.

 

[stevetheplumber]

you might be wise to speak with your local water authority see if they can send an inspector to check legality of the work thats been done if it is wrong you will probably have redress against the builder or through hsbcid tell them you think theres a danger of cross contamination

 

[Will_C]

Thanks for the help I am going to phone the company that supplies the harvester for some advice and contact my water aurthority tomorrow and see where i go from there.

 

[aqualogic7]

the water company will issue a cert of non conformity you will be told what is wrong and how to install. work will have to be corrected. if the plumber is approved he is then liable if not approved then at least you have proof installation is incorrect which leaves him open to prosecution by the water company

 

[Will_C]

I dont want the builders plumbers here again, they are useless, i understand how the system works more than them and i'm not a plumber and they installed it, i dread to think what lurks behind the walls.

 

[Will_C]

I have been in contact with the manufactuer today and it appears the tank has been installed the wrong way round.

 

[mountainman]

I have been in contact with the manufactuer today and it appears the tank has been installed the wrong way round.

Now you know why gas/heating engineers keep the MI's and builders/some plumbers never need to buy toilet paper.

 

[stevetheplumber]

now you have some ammo id suggest you get all the neighbours to check as its likley they are all wrong then tacle the builders together explain to every one the possibility of contamination of their drinking water