Which wall hung frame make?

[UserError]

After careful consideration, we're still going for a wall hung loo, with a large tiled removable access panel.

I'm not interested in an unbranded cheapie - this is definitely an area to get the best. I've seen a lot of positive stuff about Geberit, but on my last post an amount of negative stuff.
So, if Geberit aren't the acme of frames/cisterns, who are? Grohe? Ideal Standard? Others?

Many thanks

 

[Radioman]

What are you fixing the bracket to? Is it brick or block work with applied plaster or is dot and dab or timber frame, etc? And what is the flooring? Chipboard, proper wood planks?

 

[gerrym11]

Just installed a wall hung Geberit frame, good quality stuff.

 

[woodstockGaz]

Hi, Recently installed a Wall hung loo (and sink!) on Gerberit frames. The frame was fixed to masonry wall and sits on 18mm chipboard flooring. We then enclosed with timber and 18mm plywood (lots of it!) and finally covered whole wall with 8mm, back painted toughend glass. Whole thing looks and works brilliantly! Strongly recommended...

 

[rpm]

Hi, Recently installed a Wall hung loo (and sink!) on Gerberit frames. The frame was fixed to masonry wall and sits on 18mm chipboard flooring. We then enclosed with timber and 18mm plywood (lots of it!) and finally covered whole wall with 8mm, back painted toughend glass. Whole thing looks and works brilliantly! Strongly recommended...

With a concealed cistern?

 

[woodstockGaz]

Yes. We had the glass cut for the 2 hanging threads, water in, waist out and rectangular cut-out for the flush mechanism...

Just read your post again - it seems your concerned about access if something goes wrong. You can isolate the water inlet (through an internal valve), access and maintain all the flush workings through the removable flush plate. So I don't think you need to provide any access other than that available through flush plate - cheers!

 

[UserError]

The first one will be in a 2m wide stud wall. I was thinking 2"x4" studs to reassure SWMBO, who has reservations. Floor is going to be 19 or 22mm Hardieboard on first-floor joists (may have to put noggins in - any advice?).

After reading about compression/cracked tiles, was thinking of a cement board for the enclosure (min thickness?) , which is a false wall across a 1200mm alcove onto timber framed airing cupboard. Framing will be reclaimed 75mm studs. Then tiles, probably ceramic.

I would feel happier having complete access through a removable panel and don't mind the small amount of extra work. My Father-in-Law did this & it worked well. Grouted in it was invisible. Need to know where it is though, maybe a diagram pasted inside the airing cupboard.
Thanks

 

[UserError]

Yes. We had the glass cut for the 2 hanging threads, water in, waist out and rectangular cut-out for the flush mechanism...

Just read your post again - it seems your concerned about access if something goes wrong. You can isolate the water inlet (through an internal valve), access and maintain all the flush workings through the removable flush plate. So I don't think you need to provide any access other than that available through flush plate - cheers!

I'd read that, would be interesting to hear from someone who had actually done it: it may be possible, but must be easier with nothing in the way? You can undo the speedometer cable in-situ from a real Mini gearbox, but it would be easier if...

 

[rpm]

Most likely doing one tomorrow I'll take a picture for you.

 

[rpm]

Most likely doing one tomorrow I'll take a picture for you.

Sorry bud, it turned out the customer didn`t have what they thought they had ! :mad2:

Edit. I have isolated the water and removed the flush valve via the small hatch before when it wouldn`t stop dribbling water into the pan.

 

[UserError]

Sorry bud, it turned out the customer didn`t have what they thought they had ! :mad2:

No worries. I'm still going to make a commodious access panel :smile5: although it would have been interesting to see if access was that easy, as a removable panel would only be for major events if it ever needed to be removed, especially if access through the hatch is OK. What was more interesting, is 'what had failed' & what make was it...?

All this has got me thinking about "things going wrong with toilets" and over my home-owning career, I've had problems with two traditional floor mounted toilets coming loose (none of us are large) and subsequent doughnut failures as well as grief trying to re-fix the things. I am happy to conclude that a wall hung toilet properly fixed to a stout frame shouldn't be worse than that.

 

[rpm]

The most common reason is the rubber washer that stops water trickling into the pan either gets dirty or blisters so the whole flush / dump valve has to come out, this seems to happen to all valves in time.

 

[Chalked]

I have removed fill valves from Grohe, geberitt and veiga wall frames with no bother. All spares will be available for theses for years. There is nothing els yo need access to.

 

[Radioman]

The first one will be in a 2m wide stud wall. I was thinking 2"x4" studs to reassure SWMBO, who has reservations. Floor is going to be 19 or 22mm Hardieboard on first-floor joists (may have to put noggins in - any advice?).

After reading about compression/cracked tiles, was thinking of a cement board for the enclosure (min thickness?) , which is a false wall across a 1200mm alcove onto timber framed airing cupboard. Framing will be reclaimed 75mm studs. Then tiles, probably ceramic.

I would feel happier having complete access through a removable panel and don't mind the small amount of extra work. My Father-in-Law did this & it worked well. Grouted in it was invisible. Need to know where it is though, maybe a diagram pasted inside the airing cupboard.
Thanks

Well I hope you are very good at framing and calculated the number of studs correctly, have a very good method of fixing to the header and footer plus take into account that the timber will flex. Your going to be levering a lot of weight on that structure: toilet pan plus possible an above average human. 4x2 may not be big enough to prevent movement. Noggins don't provide strength, they are there to stop the stud from twisting, not to provide additional strength against loading. The only way to do that is to bolt additional timber to existing joists, commonly known as sistering up. This article will help
http://mikestrade.sydneyinstitute.wikispaces.net/file/view/wall+frames+text+part+1.pdf

 

[UserError]

So who makes the most reliable cistern innards - of any flavour (low-level, close-coupled whatever)?

 

[UserError]

Well I hope you are very good at framing and calculated the number of studs correctly, have a very good method of fixing to the header and footer plus take into account that the timber will flex. Your going to be levering a lot of weight on that structure: toilet pan plus possible an above average human. 4x2 may not be big enough to prevent movement. Noggins don't provide strength, they are there to stop the stud from twisting, not to provide additional strength against loading. The only way to do that is to bolt additional timber to existing joists, commonly known as sistering up. This article will help
http://mikestrade.sydneyinstitute.wikispaces.net/file/view/wall+frames+text+part+1.pdf

Thanks for that useful link, always up for a technical read! I didn't see sistering/doubbling in there, but actually helpful to see how my house is probably made (timber structure, brick outer leaf) .

I'm not sure it's all that complicated or scary unless I'm missing something? I was going to go for overkill on the whole structure,not least to keep SWMBO happy who is a bit nervous about it: double up the studs adjacent to the frame, screwing the structure rather than nailing and also screwing corner braces onto the affected studs. Then clad the lower part with 12mm Hardieboard (also more rigid), I might even have some 22mm left over from the floor. I can't see that two pairs of 4x4 of timber aren't enough to prevent deflection by the rotational force from the frame? Most of the sitting force is taken down through the frame, but some of that force will try to pull the frame forward and that's the force that has to be resisted by the studs - nowhere near the max pan loading force of some 4kN. The Geberit videos show metal studs being used and they are less rigid than timber and this one shows single (2x4? timber) [DLMURL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GNaII8Wx_o[/DLMURL] . They also show fixings being made along the height of the frame, spreading the deflection load.
Do you not think this will suffice? Seems more than Geberit are doing.

 

[Radioman]

Ha ha nice promo video, makes it look so easy[emoji3]. The problem is that most timber framed houses in the U.K. Are not built to the same dimensional spec as the US. Anyway you seem to have made the decision so good luck.

 

[NickH]

I've fitted a lot of Geberit concealed cisterns and all the workings are easily accessible through the the flush panel, in fact there are no parts that can be reached from anywhere else so there's no point in having a separate access panel. The lower flush pipe (into the pan) is an integral moulded part of the cistern so there's nothing to leak there.
I've done a fair few wall hung frames as well and again, the Geberit ones are all accessible through the flush plate. The frames are designed to carry the weight and you won't have a problem if it's fitted correctly. The weight of the "customer" will try to pull the top of the frame forward and push the bottom of the frame back so make sure the top is very securely bolted back to the wall and fix timber noggins at the bottom between the frame and the wall.
Don't over think it, these frames are designed to do the job and the loadings involved are easily managed.

 

[UserError]

gone

 

[UserError]

Thanks, decision unfolded over the days, with forum & other inputs. Wall hung decision was made but the frame make was undecided. Geberit supposed to be good but on a previous thread of mine, people mentioned problems, but I think I'll take the risk with that make. Twyfords haven't replied to my email so they can shove off*. I'm happy that I can over-spec the wall to be the equal of a US one.
*Unrelated, but Dukkaboard customer service is excellent. Just had to say - I like good service, bit of a thing with me.

I'll be disappointed when I unpack it & all the bits don't fly out & install themselves...

Nick, Thanks for the reassurance, really helpful.

 

[UserError]

Went to order our pan today from a local independent supplier. The chap put forward Roca toilet frames as an alternative to Geberit (which I had been going to get). £180+ price difference, I'm OK with that providing there is good reason one of which being Geberit's long-term commitment to spares.
Any thoughts?
Thanks