Expansion Vessel Upside Down?

hallra · Jan 8, 2019

Harvest Fields said:
Think videos need to be uploaded from an actual computer

Thanks, I'll give that a try.

Welder · Jan 8, 2019

chris watkins said:
White, Blue, Grey & Silver (stainless steel) = wholesome / potable water usage. (or so it use to be)
Red = Heating (or so it use to be)

It was all to do with the type of rubber used, I seem to remember that natural rubber was used in potable as it didn't support bug growth but they couldn't handle high temperatures so neoprene was used for heating.

My understanding is the same as Best, manufacturers (some at least) are moving over to red for everything because of the newer types of rubbers used, so we will all need to start checking the reds on potable systems before condemning the original installer.

It's also about the internal surface covering of the vessel. So, typically, they are either glass lined or stainless.

hallra · Jan 8, 2019

Riley said:
My advice see if they have a recommended technician

I've sent them the videos that I haven't been able to post on here.

I went through all that's been done so far:

Changed pump as it failed.
- changed to a Grundfos Alpha 3.
Changed Auto bypass to Manual Bypass.
- Alpha 3 requires it for Auto Adapt.
Balance System with Alpha 3 balancing software.
Changed Automatic Air Vent.
- It started leaking.
Changed expansion tank.
- It leaked air and was sized too small.
Drain, Cleaner, Flush, Inhibator *2.
- With cleaner in system for 2 days, then 21 days.
Took radiators off and manually flushed with hose.

And what I have planned:

Add Magnaclean Professional 2.
Add Spirotech Spirovent Air Seporator.
Change Pressure Guage and PRV.
- Gauge is not increasing when system heats up.
Change pump washers as suggested by Stigster.

They have basically said they agree with the plan, as they would be recommending the same.
- If all this doesn't fix the issue they will put me in touch with one of their advanced technicians.

Riley · Jan 8, 2019

I know this is quite an old thread now but have you actually had a plumber out that deals specifically with system design

hallra · Jan 8, 2019

Pickwickpick said:
The expansion vessel won't be the source of your problems, any air that does end up in it from the CH water doesn't cause any issues as it acts in the same way as the air behind the bladder, there's no way you'd get enough air in there to alter the performance of the vessel and it wouldn't cause any noises.

With regards to the having to constantly bleed your rads, is this a new system? Have you had any alterations made to an existing system? Has an inhibitor been added?

Hi Pickwickpick,

The house is a Persimmons New Build, 3 yrs old, I wouldn't trust the install, as Persimmons have delivered a very bad quality build.
- In the post above, I've listed what has recently changed.
- Forgot to add a two port valve was reinstalled as in had been installed wrong way round.
- In the past, due to failures, 2 * 2 port valve and 2 * pump replaced.
- I suspect originally no inhibator in system, due to the muck that come out when cleaned/flushed.

hallra · Jan 8, 2019

Riley said:
I know this is quite an old thread now but have you actually had a plumber out that deals specifically with system design

No, but I've had a G3 Enginner/Plumber out but he appeared to know less than me and showed no interest in getting to bottom of problem.

If I could find someone with the right knowledge/skills who wouldn't rip me off and actually wanted to work on this, I would gladly get them in.
- I am disabled, not well, on long term sick, the last thing I should be doing is all this work.

If I do those planned changes and it doesn't solve, I'll be looking for help on here to identify some one who can solve this.

hallra · Jan 8, 2019

JVTrades said:
How old are the radiators? are they gassing out? when you bleed does it smell like rotten eggs? Are there any auto air vents as these can sometimes allow air in too?

The Rads are 3 yrs old.
No sure what you mean by gassing out.
No smell and gas isn't flamable.
Yes one auto air vent, its brand new as the last leaked.
- I did ask a question in previous post about position of this valve, as the water flows directly down away from this into the Hot Water Cylinder in case it is pulling air. Unfortuately, I didn't get an answer, but presume if it was wrong someone would have said something.

Boiler also 3yrs, it's a new build, it does make a little kettling, but it's silent when compared to rad noise.

hallra · Jan 8, 2019

Stigster said:
Constant air ingress is sometimes caused by a poor seal on the vacuum side of the pump. I think I've posted this before but I did an experiment with some clear hose connected to a circulating pump and put in a fibre washer with a scratch across it on the vacuum side of the pump. Whilst it never leaked water it did show a stream of bubbles being pulled into the system when the pump was running. This air would then usually move to a high point e.g. upstairs radiator. The air ingress was stopped by the installation of rubber pump washers.

I made this setup in the workshop because someone did not believe air could get in at the pump without showing a leak when the pump wasn't running. I proved it can! Worth a look checking the washers at the pump, tighten them if possible or replace them with rubber ones if they aren't already. It's worth a try!

Hi Stigster,

Interesting suggestion...

That would logically make sense, I do hear air movement at the pump when it is on and I think the noise problem started after the pump was installed...

I didn't notice if the plumber used the new washers that came with the pump.
- I had bought new Pegler valves from screwfix but plumber said valves were no good as they weren't prone to leaking(?), so didn't use them and he used some from back of his van.

Would it be worth changing valves as well?

quality · Jan 11, 2019

quality said:
Ive installed blue also

hallra · Jan 11, 2019

Hi Guys,

I have a caleffi PRV in my hands, to replace the current one, as when heating the system the gauge doesn't move.
- it does appear to move correctly, when pressurising via cold feed.

Before I went to replace the PRV, I had a quick look at instructions...

In bold text it states do not install upside down...

Well the current one is upside down, I slapped my forehead and growled!

So the question is, what are the consequences of installing the PRV upside down? Am I going to need to repipe this?

I'm surprised as no one said the original was upside down, so perhaps the instructions are not great?

Please left me know as I'm sat here with the heating off and drained down wondering what to do?

Thanks.

Richard

Best · Jan 11, 2019

hallra said:
Hi Guys,

I have a caleffi PRV in my hands, to replace the current one, as when heating the system the gauge doesn't move.
- it does appear to move correctly, when pressurising via cold feed.

Before I went to replace the PRV, I had a quick look at instructions...

In bold text it states do not install upside down...

Well the current one is upside down, I slapped my forehead and growled!

So the question is, what are the consequences of installing the PRV upside down? Am I going to need to repipe this?

I'm surprised as no one said the original was upside down, so perhaps the instructions are not great?

Please left me know as I'm sat here with the heating off and drained down wondering what to do?

Thanks.

Richard

What exactly are you attempting to replace?
A pressure relief valve, - or a pressure reducing valve? (Both are PRV abbreviations)

hallra · Jan 11, 2019

As per the picture on the original post, the pressure relief valve that is below the expansion vessel.

Best · Jan 11, 2019

hallra said:
As per the picture on the original post, the pressure relief valve that is below the expansion vessel.

It should be fine in any orientation, the Prv.
Only critical thing about the relief valve is the outlet and inlet must be correct.
(The valve wouldn’t open to release pressure if the inlet was actually joined to outlet, for example)
The gauge could be faulty.
The relief valve normally is fine if it doesn’t pass water below it’s 3bar setting

Best · Jan 11, 2019

The heating wouldn’t need drained down to replace that valve.

hallra · Jan 12, 2019

Best said:
The heating wouldn’t need drained down to replace that valve.

Thanks for the info, I parked it for the night.

I had the system drained down for other items I had been working on.

The valve could be change without drain down if I wasn’t replacing the guage...
- I’m replacing the PRV as well on the advice of Caleffi.

I did contemplate just changing the gauge at one point, however it wouldn’t budge one bit and I wasn’t going to risk snapping it that late in the evening.

So eventhing is back up and running for now, without replacing the PRV and guage.

hallra · Jan 12, 2019

Update:

installed so far:

Magnaclean
Air Separator
Replaced pump valve and seals.

I also found two leaks:

The compression fitting on the positive side of pump.

The Automatic Air Vent i’ve recently replaced.

There is also a possibility that the fitting on the negative side of pump was leaking as well.

Hopefully the air, noise issues have been dealt with, time will tell.

noelm · Jan 12, 2019

Could you have a leak somewhere ?
If the system is pulling in water you will keep getting air. I'd also check pump connections which can also pull in air on each start up.

hallra · Jan 12, 2019

noelm said:
Could you have a leak somewhere ?
If the system is pulling in water you will keep getting air. I'd also check pump connections which can also pull in air on each start up.

Thanks for the suggestions, as per previous discussions under this post and other discussions under several other posts, a lot of things have been looked into, including hidden leaks.

Fingers crossed, the work I did last night, has addresses the problem, only time will tell.
- I did found two small leaks one either side of the pump and found that the automatic air vent I had recently replaced was leaking water.

Plus the Air Seporator has done its job and removed a lot of air...

So far, I have only heard the rads once... I have also noticed that the boiler has stopped short cycling and the house is heating better...
- More heat is reaching the Rads

Gasinspect · Jan 12, 2019

I would try shutting off the automatic air vent, have been known let air in. If you are bleeding radiators that octen it is not doing its job anyway.

hallra · Jan 12, 2019

Gasinspect said:
I would try shutting off the automatic air vent, have been known let air in. If you are bleeding radiators that octen it is not doing its job anyway.

Yep, did that after discovering the leak in the new AAV

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