150L Ultrasteel Unvented Cylinder - Water dripping through

[jon2t]

I have a 9 year old Ultrasteel unvented cylinder 150L that has recently had a problem with dripping water through the tundish.

I called a qualified unvented cylinder engineer who replaced the hot water temperature/pressure valve, then the cold water pressure valve & now the expansion vessel.

Unfortunately it is still dripping (water is semi cold) and is baffling the engineer.

Would anyone have any advice for me or him to solve this problem?

I understand its process of elimination & past experiences but there must be a solution.

Many thanks

Jon

 

[Whn1]

Did he change the components for the exact same ones that were there before?

 

[secret squirrel]

Was the water dripping through Tun dish at the time of his first visit, before he said it was the T&P ? & like wise the second visit ? ("probably split" one push on the schrader valve would tell if it was or wasn't) It is easy to be critical from a far but sometimes when it is basic stuff, I despair, poor or little training I guess.
If you get stuck PM me.

I despair as well! we only have one side of events here, maybe the engineer is highly experienced, maybe he is old school time served, maybe he's done all the tests.

Your quite right, being critical of someone elses work from afar is dangerous and may cause issues between an engineer and a customer. I

The engineer keeps going back to attempt to rectify the fault, he's a professional and not taking the money and running.

Maybe the cylinder has more than one fault!

Has the cylinder been maintained with yearly services?

OK I retract some of what I've written due to seeing the video.

 

[Dan Masey]

Is the immersion heater faulty? Causing it to heat up and drip? Maybe it's stuck on??? Would that cause a drip?

 

[chris watkins]

I despair as well! we only have one side of events here, maybe the engineer is highly experienced, maybe he is old school time served, maybe he's done all the tests.

OK I retract some of what I've written due to seeing the video.

So what parts don't you retract then Secret ?
I do not slag off another engineer without good reason, as you say we only know one side but when it is so blatant, that they do not known what they are about, lets just say so.

 

[payney1974]

So what parts don't you retract then Secret ?
I do not slag off another engineer without good reason, as you say we only know one side but when it is so blatant, that they do not known what they are about, lets just say so.

Maybe an engineer has never been to it????? Food for thought!

 

[secret squirrel]

So what parts don't you retract then Secret ?
I do not slag off another engineer without good reason, as you say we only know one side but when it is so blatant, that they do not known what they are about, lets just say so.

I don't slag off any engineer without being to the job, even then I refrain from doing it, its bad form plain and simple.

The reason I don't run down other peoples work, even when I have seen it is, you were not privvy to the conversation between the customer and the previous engineer, you don't know the relationship between the customer or engineer there are too many variables in this job.

I don't trust what customers say most of the time and to run someone down you don't know is just rude,

I also agree with the another poster you don't know if an engineer has even been.

Its toooooo easy to run down others people work, especially from a distance.

Of course this is only my opinion, please feel free to continue.:ciappa:

 

[jon2t]

Hi Gents,

The 150L direct unvented cylinder was installed about 9 years ago by another engineer (no longer about).

I asked my local established company on varies occasions & another independent plumber to service it over the years but every time they say there is no maintenance on these.

They say if they test (open/close) the hot Temp & Pressure release valve or the cold pressure release valve, scale from inside could cause them to lodge in the valve & leak (a lot like the problem i have). They also tell me if the water doesn’t get hot then it's the immersion heater element so only worry when you get cold water.

This is the advice i get told & it’s not the want of trying to get it serviced every year....!!!

The advice you give about wrong pipe work etc is not something I’ve ever been told about but I’m now worried (thanks lol).

I will question the company about the red vessel they recently change; the original was blue that come with the original cylinder (thanks guys).

The hot temp & pressure relive valve is different to the one he took off, i just thought it was a different make or modified part. In fact at first i thought he put the cold pressure valve on by mistake but it does say T&P valve.

The engineer is only 22 but assures me he is one of the few that are trained on these unvented cylinders. I’m sure he is, but experience may be the problem here.

I will speak to the service director tomorrow to get some answers.

I think I may hang up my film directing boots, as I’ve only just watched it back & sound like someone I’d want to fit lots of unnecessary parts to an unvented cylinder & charge them hundreds….lmao…!!!

 

[Whn1]

Double check they've fitted genuine parts! It's regulation that they do so. You can't go around fitting willy nilly pressure relief valves from the back of your van, even if they are similar. All of us g3 engineers went on a course to get the qualification and we'll all tell you it taught us nothing, experience, dedication and heads in books, manufacturers instructsions is how we roll.

 

[chris watkins]

I don't slag off any engineer without being to the job, even then I refrain from doing it, its bad form plain and simple.

The reason I don't run down other peoples work, even when I have seen it is, you were not privvy to the conversation between the customer and the previous engineer, you don't know the relationship between the customer or engineer there are too many variables in this job.

I don't trust what customers say most of the time and to run someone down you don't know is just rude,

I also agree with the another poster you don't know if an engineer has even been.

Its toooooo easy to run down others people work, especially from a distance.

Of course this is only my opinion, please feel free to continue.:ciappa:

You didn't answer my question conveniently or is it a secret, squirrel ?? I agree with most of your sentiments although not so sure about the "bad form plain & simple" but in this case !!? You know when you really know a subject (it's what you have done/do for a living) & you can read between the lines of what a customer is posting, you can tell plan & simple, that things are not right & with knowing how potentially dangerous these systems are you would not comment ?? I thought that is what we did here ???
Any one who has been on the training course for the Part G (& if it taught you nothing Whn1, can I suggest you find another training centre) would or should know enough to not make the mistakes listed in this post & should not be defended or excused in any way shape or form.

 

[secret squirrel]

I don't read between any lines, something about assumption, I thought this forum is about advising people and pointing people in the right direction not about critising others work.

I don't feel that I need to answer your question about things I'd like to remove from my original post, I don't need to justify myself to you or anyone else on this forum.

No-one is disputing how dangerous these systems are or how problematic these can be and advising someone and pointing them in the right direction is an honourable thing to do but slatting another engineer is not honourable and serves no purpose.

As I said this is only my opinion and feel free to continue to have a go at other engineers who are not here to defend there actions or reasons.

 

[jon2t]

Hi Gents,

I can see everyone is getting a little stressed here…!!!!

First of all can i thank all of you for your very honest opinions & advice.

Also can i tell you that although I’m the customer with no plumbing background i am a copier engineer & have been in the service industry 25 years (man & boy).

I have to deal with customers the same as everyone else in the service industry & reading between the lines on what the customer tells you is part of the job.

Everything i have put in my posts is true & to the best of my knowledge. I can take criticisms if I’ve gone about things the wrong way & not asked the questions that have been suggested when the engineer was on site.

I too, get frustrated when i see another’s work not to the standard that it should be & I do vent this to them or others when it can cause so many unnecessary problems soon or in the future.

As long as names & companies are not used I honestly don't see an issue with venting a little frustration.

Guy's please don't get stressed & help me fix my bloody unvented cylinder......lol......!!!!!!

I have emailed the company in question & await their response to the questions you have put to me on here (the one's i understand).

I have also asked to escalate the problem to their most experienced engineer that is fully trained & experienced (i bet its Flo the cleaner).....!!!!!!

Cheers

 

[chris watkins]

A bit of an over reaction, I feel SS but shall we agree to leave this one.

 

[chris watkins]

Hi Gents,


I asked my local established company on varies occasions & another independent plumber to service it over the years but every time they say there is no maintenance on these.

They say if they test (open/close) the hot Temp & Pressure release valve or the cold pressure release valve, scale from inside could cause them to lodge in the valve & leak (a lot like the problem i have). They also tell me if the water doesn’t get hot then it's the immersion heater element so only worry when you get cold water.

This is the advice i get told & it’s not the want of trying to get it serviced every year....!!!


The hot temp & pressure relive valve is different to the one he took off, i just thought it was a different make or modified part. In fact at first i thought he put the cold pressure valve on by mistake but it does say T&P valve.

The engineer is only 22 but assures me he is one of the few that are trained on these unvented cylinders. I’m sure he is, but experience may be the problem here.
…!!!

Just to finish on this one Jon
As you already probably know they do need servicing & as part of this the safety valves do need to be discharged to confirm they are working & yes there is an outside chance that they will leak afterwards (very rare) but we have no choice & so long as we have advised the customer on this what is the problem.
Age is not the problem although 22 does limit the amount of experience with the correct training he could be competent.
Please let us know how you get on.

 

[jon2t]

Hi Chris,

Yes i know they need servicing but the 2 engineers i have asked have declined saying not necessary, but of course they are like a pressurized time bomb if anything goes wrong.

I sent the company an email & they said the vessel sent was the wrong type by suppliers (hmm) & they will change it to the correct type Saturday.


They recon this will fix the problem but i have to say i have my doubts.

I will ask them to test the pressure & i will ask him to try & find out if it's the hot or cold valve that is causing the problems.

I will ask if they can test if getting too hot.

Is there anything else you guys can suggest that I ask him…???

The water drip through the tundish is a steady drip & whether the immersions have been on or not it’s the same flow even when the hot taps are on as asked in early posts.

Cheers

 

[Whn1]

If the parts fitted are genuine replacements, if they are g3 registered and why they fitted that vessel in the first place regardless of being sent the wrong one or not.

 

[chris watkins]

From what you have posted I would still say it is the pressure reducing valve or a problem with cross flow between the hot & cold water systems but can not see if you have a balanced system or any mixing valves etc without being on site.
Let us know how you get on (they get on). Good luck CW

 

[jon2t]

Thanks gents,

I'm not sure what a cross flow or balanced system is, but if i describe my set up it may help (maybe)...???

I live 1st floor 1 bedroom flat that is electricity only (no gas).

I have a mixer tap in kitchen & bathroom.

My hot water is by the immersion elements although I have 2, I have one on a timer (2hrs in morning & 2hrs at night) & only use the other one (on a plug) for speedy hot water if outside timer settings.

I had a new shower/new bathroom fitted in December which is external mixer hot & cold type power shower.

I had a problem just after it was fitted that the temp was never that hot so the bathroom fitter/plumber took it off & removed a filter on the hot side (not sure on this) he said it is on there to prevent mains cold water being more powerful than the hot, but because i had mains hot water pressure through the hot it could be removed.

It sort of made sense at the time but maybe you guys could comment on this..??

I did have a drip through the tundish before all this but didn't really think anything off it until it dripped outside the tundish & onto the floor causing the leak below.

Hope this gives you some idea of the set up although very basic…!!!

He should be here after 11am so will update after he’s gone.

Whn1, I take your point on fitting the wrong vessel, but if he works for a company that tried to pull a fast one because there trying a quick cheap fix is it his responsibility or companies…???

I honestly don’t think they thought I would go onto a forum to get advice – so cheers..!!!

 

[lbp plg & htg]

Have we managed to find out yet which valve is passing?

Start at the beginning then move forward.

 

[Whn1]

Thanks gents,

I'm not sure what a cross flow or balanced system is, but if i describe my set up it may help (maybe)...???

I live 1st floor 1 bedroom flat that is electricity only (no gas).

I have a mixer tap in kitchen & bathroom.

My hot water is by the immersion elements although I have 2, I have one on a timer (2hrs in morning & 2hrs at night) & only use the other one (on a plug) for speedy hot water if outside timer settings.

I had a new shower/new bathroom fitted in December which is external mixer hot & cold type power shower.

I had a problem just after it was fitted that the temp was never that hot so the bathroom fitter/plumber took it off & removed a filter on the hot side (not sure on this) he said it is on there to prevent mains cold water being more powerful than the hot, but because i had mains hot water pressure through the hot it could be removed.

It sort of made sense at the time but maybe you guys could comment on this..??

I did have a drip through the tundish before all this but didn't really think anything off it until it dripped outside the tundish & onto the floor causing the leak below.

Hope this gives you some idea of the set up although very basic…!!!

He should be here after 11am so will update after he’s gone.

Whn1, I take your point on fitting the wrong vessel, but if he works for a company that tried to pull a fast one because there trying a quick cheap fix is it his responsibility or companies…???

I honestly don’t think they thought I would go onto a forum to get advice – so cheers..!!!

Definately the engineers own responsibility, I work for a company, but if I blow somebody up gas safe or g3 will come looking for me..

 

[SimonG]

Has it been dripping since the 'filter' was removed on the new shower?

Problems can arise when an unvented cylinder is installed and the combination valve is fitted at the cylinder and a balanced cold feed is not taken. The 'filter' sounds like it was the showers check valve. If you have no balanced feed for your mains cold water, the issue could probably be fixed by installing a pressure reducing valve on your incoming mains cold water. This is only a best guess without seeing it 'in the flesh' so to speak.

 

[jon2t]

Ok he's still here (well gone back to shop) he's fitted a 12L white expansion vessel but still leaking...!!!

He's made sure it's not the T&P valve & it's the cold pressure valve side.

He's going to change the PRV he has one back at the shop...!!!

I hope this is going to solve the problem, is it a common part that would be in stock & how can i check it's a genuine unvented PRV or are they a standard part..??

Cheers

 

[jon2t]

Hi Simon,

It had been dripping before new shower/filter but didn't notice it too much.

I have to say since the shower/bathroom was done the drip become more constant...!!!

I will keep you posted on how it goes....!!!!

 

[Dan Masey]

If this dosnt work maybe fit non return valves on all the hot pipes just before the mixer taps / shower. If its not balanced maybe the cold mains is pushing back into the unvented cylinder. Just a thought....?

 

[jon2t]

Hi gents,

Well 5hrs later & 2 trips to the office but once the PRV was fitted the leak stopped (yippee)...!!!!

I will give it 24hrs before i go out & celebrate though…!!!!

They had to fit new hose to vessel but too short so had to extend copper pipe work & new PRV was slightly different so had to extend copper pipe work also.

I'm sure there accounts will now be on the phone demanding payment so what are your thoughts on this

I have already paid £150 for T&P valve & labour even though this wasn't the problem.

Then they fitted the cold pressure relief valve (not charge yet).

Then they fitted the wrong vessel (not charge yet).

Now they have fitted the right vessel & new PRV (not charged yet).

In total they have been out about 6-7 times to check & repair.

I know the parts are new & will benefit me in the future but should they charge me for labour for their miss-diagnoses...???

If they charged me cost price for the T&P & vessel & then customer price for the PRV (this had a new cold relief valve already on) & 2 x 1hr call out charges i would think that’s fair, do you...!!!!

I know costs are hard to explain if you didn't do the work but what are your thoughts...???

Cheers...!!!!

 

[lame plumber]

now your asking, wait for invoice first then ask