40kw Navien NCB Combi install with v.poor DHW? Is this adequate?

[ecswtrav]

I would think, if installed, that they can certainly be removed.
It shows a differential pressure of ~ 2 bar is required for a flow rate of 20 LPM so would probably need 3 bar mains pressure to give 1 bar at the boiler inlet,
at 12 lpm the deltaP required is ~ 0.9 bar so the mains pressure would be ~ 2 bar at this flowrate to give 1 bar at the boiler inlet., these restrictors, if fitted, can have a very significant effect on the final flowrate IMO.

Had a quick look at the manual I have here and there's no mention of flow restrictors just something about cleaning the return adaptor filter on page 51 which I assume isn't it? I've attached the manual it would be great if you had a sec to see if there's anything obvious that could have been missed. I'm going to try at some point today to measure the mains pressure just after the stopcock just so I can be sure what pressure is coming in. Thanks

 

[John.g]

I don't see any reference to cold water restrictors but on page 23 it states "After installing the boiler clean the cold water inlet filter", this of course may only refer to a typical installation but it is mentioned.

Re monitoring pressure, you have a 3 bar PG at the outside tap so when no flow through it but with flow through the combi should tell you something as it should reflect any pressure drop at the mains, just switch in the DHW and watch it, you really want another PG somewhere at the end of hot water supply to the house. Also even though it shouldn't have any effect on the flow through the boiler turn up the DHW temp control knob to max while doing the tests.

What was the kw output of your old Istor? did flow rate feel ok?

 

[ecswtrav]

I don't see any reference to cold water restrictors but on page 23 it states "After installing the boiler clean the cold water inlet filter", this of course may only refer to a typical installation but it is mentioned.

Re monitoring pressure, you have a 3 bar PG at the outside tap so when no flow through it but with flow through the combi should tell you something as it should reflect any pressure drop at the mains, just switch in the DHW and watch it, you really want another PG somewhere at the end of hot water supply to the house. Also even though it shouldn't have any effect on the flow through the boiler turn up the DHW temp control knob to max while doing the tests.

What was the kw output of your old Istor? did flow rate feel ok?

I will clarify the page 23 with the installer so thanks. I've just attached the PG to the point just after the stopcock....today around 15 mins ago it measured 2.2bar. Assuming it must fluctuate if I got 3 bar previously an outside tap. (The outside tap was the same 2.2bar btw) cranked up the boiler temp to maximum 65 degrees and opened a few outlets. The PG changed to 2bar lowest...it didn't move much at all. I'm not sure what this means I'll be honest, I just can't figure a way of measuring the pressure beyond the boiler although hopefully my fitter will have something for this. If I felt confident at removing the filling loop I'd try and measure the flow rate before it hits the boiler.
The Istor I believe was 24kw but with the pressurised cylinder we had much better flow from the taps....particulalry the hot bath tap...a massive difference...and the showers were more powerful.

 

[John.g]

It means basically that the mains pressure is fluctuating between 3 bar and 2.2 bar due to other users or whatever but your demand of 12 LPM or whatever is only dropping it a further 0.2bar (no problem from that point of view but 2 bar is IMO a pretty poor pressure for combi boiler flow rate performance). The outside tap (when not in use) will measure the mains pressure. The filling loop PG can only be utilized if the cold supply to it is from the same cold supply as to the combi, you must then be able to shut off the PRV outlet to the boiler, then screw down the PRV adjuster to reflect the mains pressure, a bit messy IMO, if you can use your own PG and attach it to the cold take off then open up your hot taps, you will then measure the pressure loss in the 40ft of cold pipe between the mains and the boiler inlet which I expect to be very low but worth taking to rule it in/out. I would then remove the gauge and re install it on the HW outlet, as close to the boiler as possible but this will have to be done with a Tee, then remove it and Tee in in to one one of HW users with the greatest flow and repeat the the test, your plumber might have to do these tests for you.

 

[gmartine]

I looked at the data tables and they specify 12.71 l/m @ 45 degrees for the "kitchen outlet" that happens to be what the OP is getting as a flow rate. Might not be relevant but thought it was odd.

 

[John.g]

That was from two taps..... "Just opened two hot taps - one in a sink next to the boiler and one in a sink upstairs in the kitchen (boiler in basement). kitchen was 5.4lpm and basement tap 7.2lpm" so kitchen was 5.4 LPM.

Would like to know the deltaP through its plate Hx or through any combi for that matter.
The old boiler, not sure if a combi but with a HW cylinder as well was giving much better flow rates through the showers and HW taps and it was the same cold water line supply so the only big change is the boiler itself?.

 

[ecswtrav]

That was from two taps.***. "Just opened two hot taps - one in a sink next to the boiler and one in a sink upstairs in the kitchen (boiler in basement). kitchen was 5.4lpm and basement tap 7.2lpm" so kitchen was 5.4 LPM.

Would like to know the deltaP through its plate Hx or through any combi for that matter.
The old boiler, not sure if a combi but with a HW cylinder as well was giving much better flow rates through the showers and HW taps and it was the same cold water line supply so the only big change is the boiler itself?.

Was hoping to reply this eve with some info from Navien as I was contacted today by the boiler fitting company saying the installer had spoken to Navien earlier today. No phonecall as yet so I can't really update.
Yes previously the ideal istor was an all in one unit of a 24kw system boiler (an icos or something similar) attached to an unvented cylinder. It had a prv at the mains set to 2bar which has since been replaced with a straight pipe and the flow from taps was far superior. I never did take any measurement but a bath would fill up in no time....now I'm sitting around for a while longer. Cold tap is no different than previously so no issues with the cold supply.
All the same pipework other than the 22mm pipe serving the boiler has been reduced to 15mm where it connects and the prv removed so pressure now makes its way up to 3bar. I've attached a pic...assuming it all looks ok?
The gas supply crossed my mind just simply with it being a bigger KW boiler but probably thinking on a bit of a simplistic level for that justification.
Thanks

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Have you tested the lpm at the boiler yet ?

 

[John.g]

Was hoping to reply this eve with some info from Navien as I was contacted today by the boiler fitting company saying the installer had spoken to Navien earlier today. No phonecall as yet so I can't really update.
Yes previously the ideal istor was an all in one unit of a 24kw system boiler (an icos or something similar) attached to an unvented cylinder. It had a prv at the mains set to 2bar which has since been replaced with a straight pipe and the flow from taps was far superior. I never did take any measurement but a bath would fill up in no time....now I'm sitting around for a while longer. Cold tap is no different than previously so no issues with the cold supply.
All the same pipework other than the 22mm pipe serving the boiler has been reduced to 15mm where it connects and the prv removed so pressure now makes its way up to 3bar. I've attached a pic...assuming it all looks ok?
The gas supply crossed my mind just simply with it being a bigger KW boiler but probably thinking on a bit of a simplistic level for that justification.
Thanks

The gas supply has nothing to do with the flow rate, you could have the boiler switched off and it won't affect the flow rate. A 20kw combi can give the same flowrate as a 40kw, it just wont be as hot.

 

[ecswtrav]

Have you tested the lpm at the boiler yet ?

I'm going to ask the fitter to do this for me as I'm a bit uncertain how to go about it. Funnily enough I did ask him to do this during the installation before connecting up the boiler but he didn't have a flow cup on the van!

 

[John.g]

Basically what is required is to measure the flow coming out of the boiler to see if there is some fault/restriction in the boiler so simply put, disconnect the outlet from the boiler, turn the temperature control to minimum, (despite what I said you do I think need the boiler diverter valve to DHW) and let the water flow into a bucket for a timed period of one minute and just measure this with anything handy like a one litre jug.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I'm going to ask the fitter to do this for me as I'm a bit uncertain how to go about it. Funnily enough I did ask him to do this during the installation before connecting up the boiler but he didn't have a flow cup on the van!

5l bucket or 1l bottle work well just time hoe long it takes to fill either and work it out how many you can fill in 60 seconds

for example if a 1l bottle takes 10 seconds to fill your running 6lpm etc if it takes 5 seconds it’s 12lm etc

you can do this via the filling loop will give an approximate gauge

eg turn the black lever off turn the blue lever off

disconnect the flex from the black lever side on the silver nut

put this into a 5l bucket or aim get your timer ready when ready open the blue lever fully and start timer etc

 

[ecswtrav]

5l bucket or 1l bottle work well just time hoe long it takes to fill either and work it out how many you can fill in 60 seconds

for example if a 1l bottle takes 10 seconds to fill your running 6lpm etc if it takes 5 seconds it’s 12lm etc

you can do this via the filling loop will give an approximate gauge

eg turn the black lever off turn the blue lever off

disconnect the flex from the black lever side on the silver nut

put this into a 5l bucket or aim get your timer ready when ready open the blue lever fully and start timer etc

Just followed your instructions nice and straightforward thanks. Although the boiler has a dedicated feed in 22mm pipe using that method I get spot on 9lpm....which corresponds nicely with the boiler readouts.
I gather this is why I'm not getting the desired flow rates?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Correct you have a restriction on the cold main somewhere need to follow this pipe all the way back to the main

 

[John.g]

Just followed your instructions nice and straightforward thanks. Although the boiler has a dedicated feed in 22mm pipe using that method I get spot on 9lpm....which corresponds nicely with the boiler readouts.
I gather this is why I'm not getting the desired flow rates?

Don't want to be awkard but its strange that a open ended pipe via that flexible hose is only giving you 9LPM when you can get up to 12.5LPM from two HW taps, one of which is upstairs, and the water must also pass through the boiler heat exchanger.

 

[ecswtrav]

Correct you have a restriction on the cold main somewhere need to follow this pipe all the way back to the main

The Istor never suffered from this issue so could this issue possibly be installation related? Seems strange how all of a sudden the flow rate has dropped after installation of a new boiler. The Istor even had a prv limiting the pressure....this doesn't and have anything limiting on the supply line now. Just for reference too, I also popped outside and tried the cold tap again....approx 21/22lpm getting to that still.

 

[ecswtrav]

Don't want to be awkard but its strange that a open ended pipe via that flexible hose is only giving you 9LPM when you can get up to 12.5LPM from two HW taps, one of which is upstairs, and the water must also pass through the boiler heat exchanger.

Yeah I agree....the only time I've managed to get a higher flow rate reading on the boiler screen is when I've opened a few hot outlets. A single outlet stays around the 9-10 mark.

 

[John.g]

Is the blue isolating valve just attached to the cold supply to the boiler and is that "1.5 bar" PG just monitoring the boiler system pressure?

Also check for a PRV installed somewhere on the cold feed to the boiler, it may be faulty because in order for the flow rate to increase from 9LPM to 12.6LPM would require a pressure increase from 2.2 bar to 4.3 bar for any fixed restriction/obstruction in the cold water feed.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Don't want to be awkard but its strange that a open ended pipe via that flexible hose is only giving you 9LPM when you can get up to 12.5LPM from two HW taps, one of which is upstairs, and the water must also pass through the boiler heat exchanger.

but that would of had 22mm pipework and not 15mm so there’s a joint somewhere maybe an iso valve etc

 

[John.g]

Maybe my thinking is wrong but a test was carried out on the cold feed supply only to the boiler by breaking a pipe (hose) so would expect the maximum possible flow rate from this as the cold feed is now open at one end, the same supply is then feeding the boiler, the hot water pipe or pipes to the hot taps and gives 40% more flow than flowing out the open end of the supply pipe.
The only other explanation is that the hot taps have mixers.

 

[ecswtrav]

Well, no contact from the fitter as yet although an electrician was here fitting some opentherm controls as part of the deal. Checked again at the outside tap and confirm it was still 22lpm. I did try the washing machine inlet hose and that didn't quite match the 22lpm and was around 17.5 but I think by looking it was really restrictive with a very tiny hole at the end. Either way it exceeded 9lpm.
Just a few feet upstream from the stopcock are the two isolation valves....one on the cold supply and the other on the boiler supply....so as suggested maybe the boiler supply one is faulty? I believe these were full bore when fitted. From looking they're both open it would seem fully.
The prv has been removed that was used to limit the istor boiler feed to 2 bar so there is nothing else on this feed to the boiler....just a left hand turn which then leads straight to the boiler.
The fitters have pieced back some plasterboard behind the boiler so I wonder if there is something restrictive they've fitted beyond this hidden out of sight?
John.g you are correct - the bathroom tap is a mixer tap.
I will keep this updated anyway until we get this resolved as I appreciate everyone's help.

 

[John.g]

Sometime, you might try this.
What flowrate does the boiler show (1) if you ran the shower only, with the boiler temp at minimum of 35C and (2) with boiler temp at max temp where you will also have mixing.

 

[ecswtrav]

Sometime, you might try this.
What flowrate does the boiler show (1) if you ran the shower only, with the boiler temp at minimum of 35C and (2) with boiler temp at max temp where you will also have mixing.

I just gave that a try....ran the shower in the ensuite in the loft as that is the furthest away of the two. There was minimal difference for some reason and both temps hovered around the 5.8lpm mark on the boiler display....the lower temp exceeding it intermittently. The shower itself has a rain head and is perfectly usable at those flow rates but just not what we were used to.

 

[John.g]

A rain shower should give a torrent of water.
If the shower is maintaining ~ 45C showering temp (thermostaic mixer?) then it should have flowed ~ 9LPM with boiler at max, still very poor.

 

[John.g]

You could also measure the actual shower flow rate with the shower temp control to minimum and on full flow, if temp setting is low enough ie a "cold" shower then no water will flow through the boiler, if this works then measure the actual shower flow rate with the shower at say 50C (or max) and the boiler at its minimum temp setting, this should then force all the water flow through the boiler and compare both flow rates.