A real brain teaser, its got me beat

[Derrick229]

Hi Lads,
Just been replumbing a house, they said they had a leak

They had a new main put in by 3 Valleys, great, no problem (no leaks)

They have a granny flat next door, and a valve that isolates the granny flat and the hotwater (this line feeds the combi boiler (it also isolates the hot water to EVERY WHERE)

I have run a new line to the bathroom, it feeds just the bath, hand basin and toilet

So is it clear so far ?

1st valve, isolates the whole place (main S/C)

2nd valve isolates the cold water in the granny flat, the hot water to the WHOLE house, the kitchen in the house and the outside tap

3rd valve isolates just the bathroom

Are you still with me ?

When I isolate the main valve (no 1) the water meter stops (this tells me that between the water meter and the main S/c is fine, no leaks)

I now shut off the 2nd valve which shuts off the granny flat, kitchen, outside tap and the hot water supply from the combi (the main valve is now open, of course)

With the main valve open and no 2 closed, I open no 3 valve (which feeds JUST the bathroom), no taps are open or dripping in the bathroom, the ball valve isnt letting by

BUT the meter is still going round, now common sense tells me that somewhere there is a leak, so there is going to be a damp patch or a puddle

There is nothing, the taps arent leaking, the pipework is dry, I can see all the pipework

I called the 3 valleys guy out, even he saw it, meter working, no damp patches, no dripping taps, dry pipe

Anyone got any ideas what the hell is happening, I been told by the 3 valleys guy the meter only works when there is a flow of water,

It only seems to be when the valve (no 3) that feeds the bathroom there is a flow, I cant find it

Anyone any ideas, because its got me buggered, 3 valleys are reluctant to dig the meter up, they say its fine (and as the leak is AFTER the meter, its the house owners problem)


(I have to be really honest, I think there is a fault on the meter)

 

[ferret]

have you tried it with valve 3 off as well with just 1 open?

 

[Derrick229]

Huh, there are only 3 valves there,
main SC, no 1,
granny flat no 2,
bathroom number no 3

So what do you mean all 3 with 1 open ?

 

[so-solar]

could be a toilet overflowing!!!!!! also check that any tanks or cisterns are full before you look at the meter

 

[easyt]

Is there (or has there been) an outside tap or watering system?
Is there a heating pipe leak and valve 3 supplying the F&E tank as well as bathroom?

 

[Derrick229]

could be a toilet overflowing!!!!!! also check that any tanks or cisterns are full before you look at the meter

Nope as I said the BV is fine, not dripping, nothing from the overflow

There are no tanks anywhere, all mains fed

 

[Derrick229]

Is there (or has there been) an outside tap or watering system?

There is but that is fed from SC No 2 (and when I shut no 2 it is isolated)

 

[Henno82]

Huh, there are only 3 valves there,
main SC, no 1,
granny flat no 2,
bathroom number no 3

So what do you mean all 3 with 1 open ?

re read it Derrick he said shut off valve 3 and put valve 1 on

 

[Derrick229]

re read it Derrick he said shut off valve 3 and put valve 1 on

Ah, right, there is nothing, the meter isnt running (and no water from the H/B, bath and WC) and this is with no 2 shut as well (which supplies the hot water)

 

[Derrick229]

If you can imagine a T, with the main S/c at the bottom, on the left is S/c no 2 on the right is S/C no 3,

All within 18 inches of each other

The cold feed to the bathroom is S/c no 3, pipe is going up the wall and is exposed (I pulled a bend to get above the ceiling) then picked up a push fit conector, then a T to feed the bath, then went on to supply the hand basin and WC

The pipe is dry and as far as I can see no damp patches, no drips, I isolated the WC, just in case that B/V was dripping, it wasnt, which just left the HB and bath on

Now if anyone can suss this out,I'll buy em a few pints, no matter where you are

 

[Derrick229]

Is there (or has there been) an outside tap or watering system?
Is there a heating pipe leak and valve 3 supplying the F&E tank as well as bathroom?

Nope, as I said, the outside tap is fed by BV no 2, along with the cold supply to the boiler (the pressure in the boiler isnt dropping either, on the heating side)

 

[john.bell55]

I think you will need to go back to the beginning.
Isolate and pressure test each part of the system.
You are getting a leak somewhere

 

[Derrick229]

I think you will need to go back to the beginning.
Isolate and pressure test each part of the system.
You are getting a leak somewhere

That I know, according to the meter, but I have wrapped EVERY joint with clean dry tissue, they are all dry, the pipe is exposed

It is all up to mains pressure, which is at the moment minimum of 1 bar

 

[easyt]

If you joints are OK.Assuming that the No 3 valve was already fitted, could you have disturbed other existing joints connected to pipe lengths that you have worked on?

 

[Derrick229]

If you joints are OK.Assuming that the No 3 valve was already fitted, could you have disturbed other existing joints connected to pipe lengths that you have worked on?

I installed no 2 and no 3 valves, ran new copper to the bathroom and to the bath

 

[WaterTight]

How did they work out they had a leak? Were they just looking at the meter when they saw it going round?

Logically a fault on the metre would occur continuously wouldn't it? Since you can make it run with one valve rather than another there must be a leak. If you can't see it that doesn't mean it's not there. You must have failed to check something. Painstaking, lengthy search needed. Is all pipework surface? Surely some must be hidden.

 

[Derrick229]

How did they work out they had a leak? Were they just looking at the meter when they saw it going round?

Logically a fault on the metre would occur continuously wouldn't it? Since you can make it run with one valve rather than another there must be a leak. If you can't see it that doesn't mean it's not there. You must have failed to check something. Painstaking, lengthy search needed. Is all pipework surface? Surely some must be hidden.

They saw the meter was working (they were having a new kitchen moved and fitted anyway) even when no 2 valve to the granny flat was isolated, I put in a new valve no 3 and no 2 valve (they just had a ballfix valve fitted) and ran new pipe to the bathroom

1, the pipe is exposed, but at some point it will be behind plaster board

2, I open valve no 1 and have both valves 2 and 3 open, meter runs, close valve 2, meter still runs, close valve 2, open valve 3, meter runs, close valve 3 meter stops, open valve 3, taps shut, BV in WC closed, meter runs, tissue round every joint dry, now no puddles, no damp patches, all pipe visible

How much of a search can I do ? it has gone on for some time now, I have put in new pipe, now logic tells me if there is a leak, there will be some kind of a sign, but there isnt anything

 

[nez]

hi

i was wondering if u shut the 2nd and 3rd valve and left valve one open, is the water meter still ticking over if so valve to mite be shot if its a ballafix its comman or bs 1010 then then new washer or dodge jumper letting water through. just a thought from a unexprinced plumber.

 

[nez]

sorry ingnor my post i'll only just read the rest of the pos.

 

[Derrick229]

hi

i was wondering if u shut the 2nd and 3rd valve and left valve one open, is the water meter still ticking over if so valve to mite be shot if its a ballafix its comman or bs 1010 then then new washer or dodge jumper letting water through. just a thought from a unexprinced plumber.

With no 1 open and no 2 and no 3 shut, no the meter dont move (there is only 18 inches seperating all 3 valves)

All valves are brand new (they are stopcocks, not ballfix valves)

Any replies are appreciated

 

[Anwah]

Hi Derek-Has the toilet sistern got a conventional overflow onit or is it one of those that if you get an overflow situation it connects into the toilet and goes down the soil stack ? if its the 2nd one it may be overflowing into the toilet without you noticing it.

 

[Derrick229]

Hi Derek-Has the toilet sistern got a conventional overflow onit or is it one of those that if you get an overflow situation it connects into the toilet and goes down the soil stack ? if its the 2nd one it may be overflowing into the toilet without you noticing it.

One of the first things I checked, conventional BV, with a isolation vale (I shut that off) but the over flow goes out on to a flat roof, not leaks there or wet spots

 

[easyt]

Have you bent the pipe anywhere?

Daft I know, but, some 30 years ago I fitted a new kitchen. New pipe leaked. There was a pinhole in a brand new length of copper pipe. If you had a bad piece of pipe and put a bend on it it could just leak at that point. Just a thought. Anyone else ever had a bad piece of pipe??

 

[ferret]

right you will have to ; open all 3 valves to pressurise the system , then close valve 1 and monitor the pressure in the system if it drops you have defo got a leak then once that is established its a case of doing each one seperate untill you track it down.

 

[Derrick229]

Have you bent the pipe anywhere?

Daft I know, but, some 30 years ago I fitted a new kitchen. New pipe leaked. There was a pinhole in a brand new length of copper pipe. If you had a bad piece of pipe and put a bend on it it could just leak at that point. Just a thought. Anyone else ever had a bad piece of pipe??

Only bend I pulled was to get it in the ceiling from the kitchen into the bathroom (the boards are up) I then put in a pushfit connector, then a short to pick up a T to supply the bath, then from the other end of the T to pick up the HB and WC

But even with a pinhole, there would be some sign of it, ie water puddle, damp patch