A real brain teaser, its got me beat

[MickBrown]

How fast is the meter going round when only valves 1 & 3 are open, I would have thought if it is a drip type leak then you would not notice the meter moving by eye but only over a period of time. Cane you close valve 3 and open valve 2 and then some tap and try and replicate the meter speed to give an idea as to what sort of volume we are talking about. In addition where do you live? There may be a member that lives nearby who could pop round and give a second opinion.

 

[Derrick229]

right you will have to ; open all 3 valves to pressurise the system , then close valve 1 and monitor the pressure in the system if it drops you have defo got a leak then once that is established its a case of doing each one seperate untill you track it down.

Hah, not daft, done all that

I can confirm that when no 1 is open and no 2, there are NO leaks (the meter dont move)

When no 1 is open and no 3 is open, the taps are shut, the BV is shut, the meter turns, but no water shows anywhere, my tissue paper on each joint is dry

Tomorrow, when I go back, I will be disconnecting the bath/HB/WC and putting a cap on all 3, then turning on the No 1 valve, then I will know that the taps and BV arent leaking

Apart from changing the new pipe I have put in, there is nothing else I can think of

 

[Derrick229]

How fast is the meter going round when only valves 1 & 3 are open, I would have thought if it is a drip type leak then you would not notice the meter moving by eye but only over a period of time. Cane you close valve 3 and open valve 2 and then some tap and try and replicate the meter speed to give an idea as to what sort of volume we are talking about. In addition where do you live? There may be a member that lives nearby who could pop round and give a second opinion.

I have had 2 blokes I used to work with come round (not including the 3 valleys bloke) they are as snooked as everyone here, they have done everything suggested here and the same thing I have done

The meter moves slowly, not sure how to measure how much of a flow though

 

[easyt]

How fast is the meter going round when only valves 1 & 3 are open, I would have thought if it is a drip type leak then you would not notice the meter moving by eye but only over a period of time. Cane you close valve 3 and open valve 2 and then some tap and try and replicate the meter speed to give an idea as to what sort of volume we are talking about. In addition where do you live? There may be a member that lives nearby who could pop round and give a second opinion.

WHEN i had a temporary meter fitted last month as I thought there might be a water leak I found out that there wasn't - a natural spring in the garden.

I asked the waterboard engineer how sensitive the meters were. He said ' set a tap dripping and have a look'. I set a kitchen tap dripping at about a drip every 4 seconds and we could see the little star shaped wheel quiver as it very slowly moved. Obviously could not measure the units.

So they are very sensitive IMO

 

[Derrick229]

But nothing is dripping,

I have a container wired under the taps in the bathroom (thank god the people arent there)

They are dry, with tissue paper in them

There is on the meter a small cog, that turns, this is what I am gauging this all on, the numbers go up (dunno what the hell they are, though)

 

[Gray0689]

It's a tricky one all I can sugest is to seperate in to circuits and pressure test each leg
And go from there

 

[Derrick229]

It's a tricky one all I can sugest is to seperate in to circuits and pressure test each leg
And go from there

Which has already been done, several times, with the same results (they are allready on seperate circuits, with isolating valves, which are new)

 

[ferret]

Hah, not daft, done all that

I can confirm that when no 1 is open and no 2, there are NO leaks (the meter dont move)

When no 1 is open and no 3 is open, the taps are shut, the BV is shut, the meter turns, but no water shows anywhere, my tissue paper on each joint is dry

Tomorrow, when I go back, I will be disconnecting the bath/HB/WC and putting a cap on all 3, then turning on the No 1 valve, then I will know that the taps and BV arent leaking

Apart from changing the new pipe I have put in, there is nothing else I can think of

No i mean isolate the house once pressurised from valve no1 with 2&3 open so you can see if there is a pressure drop at all

 

[Derrick229]

No i mean isolate the house once pressurised from valve no1 with 2&3 open so you can see if there is a pressure drop at all

I havent got a pressure gauge, but I can have the tap connector disconected and see if the level drops (using a clear hose)
When I shut off valve no 1, wait 10 minutes, then listen for a rush of water, there isnt one (using a listening stick)

Any more suggestions for when I return tomorrow to try ?

*

 

[Gray0689]

No your not getting what where saying disconect all valves and pressure test all legs inside the house with the appliances disconected and all pipes stopended
Put a pressur gage on and put upto about 3 bar and give it an hour or 2
You have sorted that once the stopcock is off no water passing

 

[Derrick229]

No your not getting what where saying disconect all valves and pressure test all legs inside the house with the appliances disconected and all pipes stopended
Put a pressur gage on and put upto about 3 bar and give it an hour or 2
You have sorted that once the stopcock is off no water passing

Right, I open valve no 1, charge the line, check the pressure, then shut off the no 1 valve, the pressure should stay as it is, if there are no leaks, it will drop if there are

(I will have no 2 valve shut as well, I know there are leaks there, when no 2 valve is open along with no 1, the meter stops, it only happens when no 1 and no 3 are both open)

 

[Dannypipe]

This is a long shot, but are there any watering systems linked to this leg of pipe? These could be linked to a timer? Other than that I think you have all the suggestions you need. Pressurise the your pipework to a set static pressure with a guage attached, then monitor it and see if the needle drops. What a nightmare mate!!

 

[Gray0689]

Then there has to be some sort of leak on or after the 3rd valve what is attached after the 3 rd valve ??

 

[Derrick229]

This is a long shot, but are there any watering systems linked to this leg of pipe? These could be linked to a timer? Other than that I think you have all the suggestions you need. Pressurise the your pipework to a set static pressure with a guage attached, then monitor it and see if the needle drops. What a nightmare mate!!

You are telling me, its a blody nightmare, a leak with no sign

The pipe from no 3 valve goes straight to the bathroom, (it originally went into the loft, down the bedroom, under the floor, into the bathroom, but I have cut that all off now and removed it from the loft, there are open ends under the both both are open and discoonected )

no watering system

I am not sure why the pipe went into the loft, down the bedroom, and under the floor to the bathroom, when the kitchen is below the bathroom, but I think its the previous plumbers way of saving running new pipe and removing the tank and cylinder, using the cold feed from the tank to the bath and the cold feed to the tank, because the cold feed was 15mm and the feed to the bath was 22mm, BUT either way, this is now disconnected and has open ends

A new main to the bathroom has been run and its this bugger that is giving me the headache




There are just some jobs that are going to be a real pain in the bum, I have found it

 

[Derrick229]

Then there has to be some sort of leak on or after the 3rd valve what is attached after the 3 rd valve ??

Hah, you lazy bugger, I posted that all earlier, just a cold tap in the bath, cold tap in the HB and the WC (which is isolated and dry)

From valve no 3, there are 2 elbows, soldered, 1 pulled bend, 1 straight pushfit connector, 1 T which goes off to the bath, the T then goes off to the HB, then finishes with a soldered elbow to the WC which has an isolation valve on it, which is off

EVERY joint has tissue round it, which when I left on Saturday was dry

I have to leave the water on, a bloke is living in the Granny flat

 

[Plamber]

Hi, has you plumber in cylinder/boiler? could a blow off/discharge pipe be dripping?. ive seen new pressure relief valves drip.

 

[Derrick229]

Hi, has you plumber in cylinder/boiler? could a blow off/discharge pipe be dripping?. ive seen new pressure relief valves drip.

Oh, come on,read the whole thread, please

You may have seen pressure relief valves drip, but this isnt happening here

 

[Gray0689]

Hah, you lazy bugger, I posted that all earlier, just a cold tap in the bath, cold tap in the HB and the WC (which is isolated and dry)

From valve no 3, there are 2 elbows, soldered, 1 pulled bend, 1 straight pushfit connector, 1 T which goes off to the bath, the T then goes off to the HB, then finishes with a soldered elbow to the WC which has an isolation valve on it, which is off

EVERY joint has tissue round it, which when I left on Saturday was dry

I have to leave the water on, a bloke is living in the Granny flat

I'm a lazy bugger am I?
I'm just trying to help you out
sort it out your self pxxxk
Soldered joints then pushfit did you put in continuity bonding where you broke line with plastic and I'm lazy muppet

 

[Derrick229]

I'm a lazy bugger am I?
I'm just trying to help you out
sort it out your self pxxxk
Soldered joints then pushfit did you put in continuity bonding where you broke line with plastic and I'm lazy muppet

Yes, if you had read the thread from the start, you would have seen where the leak is supposed to be (the pipe JUST feeding the bathroom) the reason a push fit was used, was the pipe was near a timber joist and I didnt want it catching fire (I got a limited amount of space under the floor

No I havent put in bonding yet, I will do that when the leak is sorted, what is the point in putting on bonding if the pipe has to be changed ?

If I could sort it myself, I wouldnt be asking in here would I ?

I been a plumber for 40 years and have never had this before, has anyone else ?

I was calling you lazy in jest (I couldnt find a smiley face) sorry if you took offense

 

[Gray0689]

Well I did

 

[GreenArmy]

Derrick, does the customer know the problems your having? If not and your sure you cant find a leak then best just finish up and go. Although thats easier said than done. I would say your best bet is to do what has already been suggested and pressure test your section of pipe after valve 3. Try and get a good nights kip without thinking about it to much and let us know the outcome tomorrow.

 

[Derrick229]

Derrick, does the customer know the problems your having? If not and your sure you cant find a leak then best just finish up and go. Although thats easier said than done. I would say your best bet is to do what has already been suggested and pressure test your section of pipe after valve 3. Try and get a good nights kip without thinking about it to much and let us know the outcome tomorrow.

Oh, he knows, by god does he know, but his reply is, I want it sorted,

I'm on a price plus parts, so makes no difference to him how long I'm there, I cant finish off, I have to connect the kitchen up, then try and get paid (cant see him doing that if the meter is still going round)

So until tomorrow, when I get the gauge and test the pipe that the suspect leak is on, there is buggerall I can do

Thanks to all for your replies and suggestions, they really have been appreciated, if I have ruffled anyone up the wrong way, I apologise, no offense was intended

 

[Derrick229]

Well I did

Oh, well cant do any more than apologise

 

[Gray0689]

Ok cheers

 

[Derrick229]

Ok cheers

Now we are best mates again

Any ideas ?

A leak with no water showing, it beats the hell out of me