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It matters not a jot where you increase the pipe size. Increasing the diameter of the pipe at any point along the run will decrease resistance to gas flow and thus increase the working pressure at the appliance. Resistance of the pipe and the laws of thermofluids apply to natural gas/LPG in exactly the same way as any other gas/liquid travelling along the pipe.
 
i've been told by a few gas engineers that if you can't increase diameter from meter then do it at appliance end, they call it reservoiring and it helps deliver working gas pressure in otherwise low pressure supplies
 
Hmm, interesting (and different) thoughts from you guys. Thanks for all chipping in. The latest thinking seems to be that increasing pipe size anywhere in the run will increase volume, but potentially decrease working pressure at the appliance (in this case the boiler), which is the exact opposite of what I am trying to achieve (increase working pressure at the appliance)!

why would it do that any increase in diameter will 'help' the gas get the the appliance and therefore pressure and flow rate are better
 
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why would it do that? remember the working pressure is related to thee gas govener
I don't know - just trying to summarise the points from the posts. Looks like the later posts say that increasing pipe size anywhere will increase volume, decrease resistance and increase working pressure at the appliance. The issue I am facing is that the pressure drop from gas meter to boiler is too great (around 6mbar) so am trying to determine ways of reducing this pressure drop. I am assuming the gas supply people won't change the governor to increase the gas meter pressure to above 22mbar?
 
6mbar drop has nothing to do with the gas board, its your installation your engineer should sort this

you may need more 28mm than the last 2-3m aswell
 
have your boiler gas rated and the inlet pressure checked on the hob, if the gas rate on the boiler and pressure drop on the hob are within limits leave the pipework as it is, the installation would be classed as NCS.
 
6mbar drop has nothing to do with the gas board, its your installation your engineer should sort thisyou may need more 28mm than the last 2-3m aswell
Understood. Just responding to fuzzy's post (look at the text i quoted) about the governor. I think recent changes to the system as part of a recent period of building works have resulted in a both job (we eventually kicked out the builders) so am left o pick up the pieces. I have an RGI coming to look at it but wanted to make sure I did some research first. The reality is that it will be tough to replace anything other than the last 2-3m with 28mm pipe. Perhaps a middle section of about 3m could also be replaced but that is about it without having to dig up walls (which you can understand I would like to avoid). This gives 5-6m of 28mm upgraded from 22mm (but not starting at the meter). But it generally sounds like upgrading sections of pipe to 28mm will help even if in the middle and end of the run (although a number of you have disagreed with that, so how do I convince my RGI if he disagrees as well).
 
Is this a new boiler install ?
No, been there a couple of years and pressure drop was fine before building work. Recent building work re routed a pipe and I asked them to ensure it was 22mm rather than the original 15mm for part of it. It is possible the measurement at the boiler taken by a boiler engineer a couple of weeks ago was incorrect so it may not be a 6mbar drop, but either way, the drop is high! I just dont understand how they could have introduced a big drop as essentially run is similar to before. Either way the builders are not coming back as I kicked them out for other shoddy work so they won't be solving it. Am hopeful that only sections can be replaced to fix the problem.
 
you can buy a 15m tracpipe rerun for about £240, might be easier to rerun the whole gas carcass than fart about putting bits in.
 
so who re-routed the pipework ?
It was all part of the building work (so the builders who i kicked out) so they would have contracted someone I think. Don't have the details of the actual person who did it so can't get him back to sort it. The original pipes were put in by another company.
 
you can buy a 15m tracpipe rerun for about £240, might be easier to rerun the whole gas carcass than fart about putting bits in.
Only problem is that it will either involve digging walls in addition to lifting floor boards (we would need to lift some floor boards in any case for upgrading sections to 28mm) so would rather not look at this option unless absolutely necessary
 
I don't know - just trying to summarise the points from the posts. Looks like the later posts say that increasing pipe size anywhere will increase volume, decrease resistance and increase working pressure at the appliance. The issue I am facing is that the pressure drop from gas meter to boiler is too great (around 6mbar) so am trying to determine ways of reducing this pressure drop. I am assuming the gas supply people won't change the governor to increase the gas meter pressure to above 22mbar?

increasing the pressure at the govener would not alter the drop in pressure across the system, they wouldnt do it anyway. you could do some pipe size calcs and work it out, normally its just a case of upsizing. Have you checked youve not got the manometer on the wrong size of the appliance have you and getting burner pressure? wouldnt be the first time somebody done that
 
increasing the pressure at the govener would not alter the drop in pressure across the system, they wouldnt do it anyway. you could do some pipe size calcs and work it out, normally its just a case of upsizing. Have you checked youve not got the manometer on the wrong size of the appliance have you and getting burner pressure? wouldnt be the first time somebody done that

The vaillant ecotec has a zero pressure govenor so no burner pressure to check.
 
The vaillant ecotec has a zero pressure govenor so no burner pressure to check.
Not sure I follow. What pressure would they have checked at the boiler then? He seemed to connect a manometer to something in the boiler. Would this be the pressure of the gas just before it hits the burner?Is anyone able to run a quick calculation to see what improvement I get in terms of pressure drop if I swap 5m of 22mm pipe with 5m of 28mm pipe?
 
how much gas m3/hr does the boiler use ?

edit: I see its a 31kw boiler so 2.79 m3/hr I will go and get my sizing table and have a look
 
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not much at all your only losing 0.25mbar through that amount of pipework in 22mm you have to factor in bends and Tees aswell to get the total length

5m 22 = 0.25mbar
5m 28 = 0.16mbar
 
Ignoring the hob.

The pressure drop you have is down to more than you are stating.
A 15m x 22mm run with 10 elbows to the tee
then
3m x 22mm + 1m x 15mm + 1 elbow from tee would give an overall drop of around 1.68mb (it would be around 2.34mb allowing for a 7kw hob)

The 15mm part somewhere under the floor has never been upgraded. Get it done again and done right this time.
 
dont forget with a vailant you can lose 2mb wk press through the inlet elbow to the test point this is in the manual. i fitted a a large kw glowworm flexicom a while back and used a rear piping jig which only allowed 15mm pipe to the boiler from the top that reduced the wk press i cut a tee in and fitted test point on the 22mm part and got 20mb wk there .

ant
 
dont forget with a vailant you can lose 2mb wk press through the inlet elbow to the test point this is in the manual. i fitted a a large kw glowworm flexicom a while back and used a rear piping jig which only allowed 15mm pipe to the boiler from the top that reduced the wk press i cut a tee in and fitted test point on the 22mm part and got 20mb wk there .

ant

true indeed I was told at one of their courses that they allow 2.5mbar to be lost at inlet
 
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