Air Problem in Open Vented System after Boiler Change

[king of pipes]

I had a similar installation where pipe work was 30 years old buried in screed floors I upgraded the system fitted a Worcester heat only system boiler so sealed it ,also added a sealed system kit and extra expansion vessel but added a pressure reducing valve to the filling loop so I could keep the system at a low pressure thus being sealed, air is pushed out when filling and venting but does not go above 0.5 of a bar expansion is taken up in the expansion vessels and when at 65- 70 degrees c does not rise above .75 of a bar this could work for you as a last resort but I think you need to rule out any leaks on the system first. Kop

 

[ThePook]

I had a similar installation where pipe work was 30 years old buried in screed floors I upgraded the system fitted a Worcester heat only system boiler so sealed it ,also added a sealed system kit and extra expansion vessel but added a pressure reducing valve to the filling loop so I could keep the system at a low pressure thus being sealed, air is pushed out when filling and venting but does not go above 0.5 of a bar expansion is taken up in the expansion vessels and when at 65- 70 degrees c does not rise above .75 of a bar this could work for you as a last resort but I think you need to rule out any leaks on the system first. Kop

Thanks, that's a good suggestion to include an extra expansion vessel to minimise pressure increase as it heats up. If I do have to seal, I will make sure a larger one is fitted.

I completely agree that there is something else fundamentally wrong, which needs fixing itself before sealing up. That's basically where I am at, and do plan to seal in future, but only after a repipe.

I guess the part I struggle to understand is how/why sealed with 0.5bar at expansion vessel connection (presumably near boiler/pump) would make the system behave significantly differently to how it is now with approx. 0.45bar static head at the pump?

Water level in expansion tank had risen approx 6mm this morning, but system was slightly warm. Will keep an eye on it and check again at the same time and temperature.

 

[gmartine]

I guess the part I struggle to understand is how/why sealed with 0.5bar at expansion vessel connection (presumably near boiler/pump) would make the system behave significantly differently to how it is now with approx. 0.45bar static head at the pump?

No air ingress, lesser corrosion, increased efficiency and far easier to remove trapped air without the need to turn on the system.

What makes you think your pipework (which has survived for decades) won't be able to take the relatively small increase in pressure from a sealed system?

 

[gmartine]

Oh and you have a manual vent on the return, I'd probably replace that with a bottle vent which would at least prevent any trapped air from being recirculated.

 

[fixitflav]

Sorry, don't understand that, is it something I said?

Neither do I. Can't rule anything out at this stage, as the politicians say!

 

[fixitflav]

One further observation I should have mentioned above - the air seems to hide in the DHW circuit. If I manually open that zone valve, I hear the air rush into the return and filter, before hearing it again coming out of the flow,

If the HW zone valve is normally closed, sounds like the air is getting into the HW circuit via the return pipework. That might be connected with the return pipework layout you described earlier, hard to say without knowing the details. But it doesn't alter the fact that the air shouldn't be there anyway.

 

[fixitflav]

Also forgot, the condensate trap on the boiler seems to run quite often and has a black/dark dusty sediment in it. Is that normal?

That tends to support my theory - heat exchanger. Theory also means there'd be more condensate than expected, which sounds like you're getting. Can you catch it, and measure volume? Measure gas volume over same time and compare actual condensate with estimated from gas volume.

 

[fixitflav]

Finally, I notice that if I pull a small sample of water out of the boiler, it seems very foamy. Is that right for water treated with x100?

Agree with kop. Not right.

 

[fixitflav]

Water level in expansion tank had risen approx 6mm this morning, but system was slightly warm. Will keep an eye on it and check again at the same time and temperature.

Mmm! I'd expect it to drop if water is being drawn into the h/ex.

Personally, I wouldn't use pressurised on a new system, and I definitely wouldn't take out an existing F/E tank and convert. Each has its pros and cons.
And I doubt it would cure your problem. It's possible higher pressure at the boiler would stop air ingress (if that's the cause), but you might get outward leaks instead! If the pressure is kept low the boiler doesn't know it's not on gravity.

 

[fixitflav]

With respect to the boiler heat exchanger, I will try what you suggested with the tank, but would it also be possible to pressure test? I have a Monument gauge that will fit on the boiler drain terminal.

It might, but the leak only seems to happen when the h/ex is hot, otherwise you would expect water leaking out when the system is idle. BTW what's a Monument gauge?

 

[ThePook]

What makes you think your pipework (which has survived for decades) won't be able to take the relatively small increase in pressure from a sealed system?

I take your point. Honestly, its probably just a somewhat irrational fear of undiscovered leaks under floors. Genuinely, I believe it originates from discovering dry rot under the floor of our first house on day 3 of ownership, having skrimped and saved for years for a deposit, and being pennyless to sort it out quickly!

Oh and you have a manual vent on the return, I'd probably replace that with a bottle vent which would at least prevent any trapped air from being recirculated.

Good shout and an easy job for a quick win. Leave open all the time or close after initial fill and bleed? Worth putting one on the top flow into the DHW coil, too? Both places are manual at present.

But it doesn't alter the fact that the air shouldn't be there anyway.

My thoughts entirely, and why I want to remedy at source the air problem.

Mmm! I'd expect it to drop if water is being drawn into the h/ex.

What if the HEx was also somehow letting the air in? Long shot, I guess.

BTW what's a Monument gauge?

Sorry, Monument-branded water pressure gauge - on a hose with a 1/2 bsp female connector. Bought when our first house kept popping joints, and eventually proved that our incoming water mains was over 10bar at times - see above, sad times!

Thanks all for the constructive comments - appreciate you taking the time.

 

[gmartine]

A bottle vent does so automatically, yes I'd replace both manual vents. Intergas condenses all the time due to nature of hex, doesn't explain colour but may explain volume.

 

[fixitflav]

Thanks all for the constructive comments - appreciate you taking the time.

Keep us posted on F/E tank level and condensate production. I still think it's most likely the h/ex.

 

[ThePook]

Let the system cool tonight, much to the disgust of Mrs Pook, and the cold level in the tank is exactly the same as 24 hours earlier.

Going to struggle to catch and check the condensate, also cook with gas, so volumes will be misleading. Will have a think on that one...

 

[fixitflav]

Let the system cool tonight, much to the disgust of Mrs Pook, and the cold level in the tank is exactly the same as 24 hours earlier.

Going to struggle to catch and check the condensate, also cook with gas, so volumes will be misleading. Will have a think on that one...

As you do not appear to be losing water (out of the h/ex) checking condensate vs gas consumption won't tell you much.
The h/ex could still be drawing air in but not leaking water. I can't think of anything else, and you've tried nearly everything. I can see the installer will be loth to change the h/ex (or the complete boiler). Maybe if it's at your cost if it doesn't cure the problem.

 

[Last Plumber]

Also forgot, the condensate trap on the boiler seems to run quite often and has a black/dark dusty sediment in it. Is that normal?

It's normal to have a small settling of dark residue in the bottom of the trap if that's what you mean? It should be cleaned out at service time.

How is the Flow to the Cylinder Coil vented? (curious).

 

[Last Plumber]

Could a faulty hex explain foamy water in the primary circuit?

Too much inhibitor could do in my experience. It can be overdosed and end up like soap as it leaves the pump. Only seen it on very few occasions but it can.

 

[fixitflav]

Let the system cool tonight, much to the disgust of Mrs Pook, and the cold level in the tank is exactly the same as 24 hours earlier.

Just one thing, probably irrelevant to your problem but I'm curious. You said earlier the Evohome controls the hot water, and I can see in the pic the actuator has been removed from the HW valve. How does that work? What stops the HW getting too hot when CH is on?

 

[ThePook]

It's normal to have a small settling of dark residue in the bottom of the trap if that's what you mean? It should be cleaned out at service time.

How is the Flow to the Cylinder Coil vented? (curious).

Yes, that's what I mean about the trap - thanks for confirming.

The DHW primary coil had a manual vent on the top (flow) connection until this evening. I have fitted an AAV there tonight and on the top of the return to the boiler. Let's see, but not optimistic!

Too much inhibitor could do in my experience. It can be overdosed and end up like soap as it leaves the pump. Only seen it on very few occasions but it can.

Interesting, I have 1l of X100 in a 10 radiator system. Tested it with Sentinel's Quick Test kit, and looks spot on.

Just one thing, probably irrelevant to your problem but I'm curious. You said earlier the Evohome controls the hot water, and I can see in the pic the actuator has been removed from the HW valve. How does that work? What stops the HW getting too hot when CH is on?

The missing actuator is the CH flow, so the valve is full open. The HR92 radiator valve controllers open/close to control flow to each individual rad. If you download the Evohome manual, it is their preferred 'figure 4' installation. Works well, and means each room is a separate zone with time and temperature control. The right-hand BDR91 in the photo opens/closes the DHW zone actuator (mine is also hardwired via a conventional cylinder thermostat, so for safety it does not rely entirely on wireless control to limit water temperature). The total heat demand is calculated by Evohome and is controlled by the left-hand BDR91 wireless boiler relay in the photo.

 

[fixitflav]

The missing actuator is the CH flow, so the valve is full open.

OK, not for the 1st time, I jumped to the wrong conclusion!

 

[ThePook]

Ok, so tried a few more things:

The air can be purged out of all circuits if it is run with the boiler off. I can achieve silent flow whichever zones are open in this way.

If I fire the boiler, as soon as it reaches temperature (currently flow is set at 70C) I hear air bubbles coming out of the top of the boiler and through the pump.

If it is circulating through DHW or Auto Bypass Valve at the time, I get quite a large overshoot on the flow temperature (approx 8-10C) before the boiler modulates down. I am sure this is to be expected, as in either of these scenarios, the return temp is higher. But I guess it might explain why the noise is worse after either of these circuits have been active.

Thoughts?

 

[fixitflav]

Ok, so tried a few more things:

The air can be purged out of all circuits if it is run with the boiler off. I can achieve silent flow whichever zones are open in this way.

If I fire the boiler, as soon as it reaches temperature (currently flow is set at 70C) I hear air bubbles coming out of the top of the boiler and through the pump.

If it is circulating through DHW or Auto Bypass Valve at the time, I get quite a large overshoot on the flow temperature (approx 8-10C) before the boiler modulates down. I am sure this is to be expected, as in either of these scenarios, the return temp is higher. But I guess it might explain why the noise is worse after either of these circuits have been active.

Thoughts?

With those symptoms, it looks to me more and more like the h/ex. Maybe something expands when it's firing, causing a leak to open up. On the optimistic side, maybe there's a bolt or something loose, which can be easily fixed.
Presumably the boiler is recently installed so still under guarantee. Have you involved Intergas? I still think I would replace the h/ex, at their cost, naturally, if it cures it. It's not going to be that expensive, in the context of the problem, if it doesn't. You seem to have eliminated everything else.

 

[Dave M]

Sorry, don't understand that, is it something I said?

Cold feed from tank should be fitted in return ,on the photoits in wrong place. so cap off by air separator and connect to return at bottom of picture

 

[fixitflav]

Cold feed from tank should be fitted in return

That's how it was done 40-odd years ago, nowadays it's boiler - open vent - cold feed - pump. Cold feed preferably up and under, to avoid convection warming the F/E tank, hasn't got that here, but I doubt it's causing the current problem. Earlier arrangement caused seesawing between the vent pipe and the F/E tank, drawing aerated water into the circuit every time the pump starts and stops.

 

[ThePook]

Hi all,

Apologies for the long gap between posts, but I have let this run for a couple of weeks with the flow temperature at 65degC. The result - total silence.

On Friday night I turned it back up to 70degC. The bubbles are back with a vengeance!

The boiler manufacturer's customer service have not been helpful at all, which when you consider the cost of a boiler is very disappointing. Wondering if I might end up forking out of my own pocket for my GSR installer to fit a new heat exchanger, but considering the lack of interest from the manufacturer, I feel like I would rather put the money towards a different brand of boiler altogether.

Any other thoughts before I bite the bullet?

Thanks in advance all.