Air source heat pumps in the news again

[Jones82]

I'm getting so sick of the media and tories plugging ashp's like they are the solution to all our heating needs.

Latest news today, £5k grant towards the cost of replacing a gas boiler with an ashp. What a joke.

Every ashp system I've worked on and installed runs the heating at 40 degrees, great for a new build with fantastic insulation and underfloor heating but just simply wouldn't work in most of the houses in England.

Why is this never mentioned in the media?

Air source should be the last thing we do not the first, the first should be insulation and upsizing pipework.

Just think of all them new builds, built in the last 30 years with microbore pipework, some barely run on gas boilers nevermind air source.

It makes me wonder what other things the tories pretend to know what they are talking about

I think one of Boris' mates manufactures ashp's....

 

[John.g]

25% rad output will keep most rooms up to temperature say 500watts, otherwise outside temperature control or heat pump set to 40C will never work as a 2kw rad with a 40C flow temp will only output ~ 570watts. Of course this setting would take hours to heat a room from cold, hence suited to 24/7 opration except that one can blast up the temp for a hour or two in the morning.

 

[Last Plumber]

What a cracking thread and long may it continue!

1/ I am far from convinced (going off what I have read) that anthropological CO2 is the major cause of climate change. I am not saying that we have no effect on the environment because we certainly do but I think there are more important things to address than emissions from gas boilers.
2/ Heat pumps have been around for well over 60 years that know of and they haven't taken off yet, even with government backing. There is good reason too. As mentioned above, most existing homes would need to upgrade radiators or have a boiler or other heat generator as back up/support.
3/ They are too expensive.
4/ They are noisy! Vaillant have won the 'quiet award' but if you look at the figures, I think they are at best similar to the noise level of a conversation e.g. mid 50's in db. I also think that is for the smaller unit or a unit running at its lowest output? Not sure, need to read more on it but can you imagine having one outside every home. I am having this conversation with the neighbour at the moment, who wants to put one down the side of the house (approx 1.5M away) facing my kitchen extract fan. I can hear everything through this fan and I know it will drive me nuts if it goes ahead. Currently doing my utmost to put him off.
5/ I just completed a BEIS survey which was run for the government. As per usual, I thought that the questions were geared toward giving the answers they want as opposed to actually asking your opinion on heat pumps.

In my opinion the government would be better off asking direct questions to the engineers who work in the industry before pushing anything.

 

[Roy_66]

Think you are right that new builds are the place to start. If can't get those right then no hope.

Just accept that the so called MSM journalists are not likely to be up to the job . . .

How about starting a 38degrees petition to lobby Kwasi and co:

Start a petition - Campaigns by You

It's easy to get your petition started, just fill out this simple form and share your petition with your friends and family. We'll help you every step of the way.

you.38degrees.org.uk

For the startup cash to fund, just stop southern HS2 (keep the Northern bits but with traditional ballast). Insulate Britain guys can organise that?

That should then leave enough cement etc. to go round for fixing Britain?

Cheers,

Roy (amateur plumber)

 

[pewe]

It was interesting to watch an interview on the news last night with an Italian in Rome who is upgrading his property.
He was installing insulation (it appeared to be external), new triple glazed windows, solar panels and an air source heat pump - at a cost of 100,000 Euros - and the Italian government was giving him 110,000 towards the cost (the extra 10,000 was an incentive bonus).

Perhaps our Governement should be talking to 'real world' experts and coming up with a prioritised list in order of what would make for an efficient way to make homes energy efficient (starting with better insulation) and giving 'staged' grants as people progressed through the list in the prioritised order - changing boiler would probably be the last thing to address.

 

[SimonG]

That completely depends on the heat load required as 14kw on it's own would be fine to heat most properties, imagine how many rooms would require 2/3kw electrical heaters or less. The issue is the additional power required to heat hot water instanteously especially if it's a combi, crude but imagine electric showers are rated somewhere between 8 and 11kw and you have an idea.

How or why those Screwfix electric combis are A rated for hot water and D rated for central heating god only knows, perhaps someone in the know could elaborate.

I fitted an electric combi a few years back, it was 18kw but could be set in 3kw increments and was set at 12kw.
It had a store of water similar to an oil combi that help it produce hot water.

 

[Ric2013]

We get worked up on stuff that isn't necessarily relevant. The first floor of my extended 2-up 2-down has draught problems I need to address, but it's a hell of a lot better than it was. The ground floor, however, is now very tight. The ground floor has been insulated even though the APC didn't consider it an issue.

The ground floor can be kept to temperature with 1.4kW and that includes heat losses to the first floor due to no interfloor insulation. I don't heat with an ASHP, but I probably could if I could get the first floor up to scratch (some very poor quality DIY timber frame on the extension).

Yet what I'd be encouraged to do is insulate the small section of poorly constructed cavity wall which would probably lead to damp issues (there are mortar bridges in the cavity) and save hardly any energy and fit solar thermal and PV (despite having only the roof area for one of the two).

Within a home... sensible insulation. Draft proofing. Get rid of damp issues first. Then learn to ventilate the house on a daily basis. Not very sexy, is it? But for the cost and materials involved, it certainly beats ASHP.

 

[John.g]

From a running cost point of view then a HP with outside/flow temps of 0C/45C will give a COP of 2.48 which around here would be very competitive with oil and increasingly with gas.
One think to bear in mind though is that a 15kw HP isn't the same as a 15kw oil/gas boiler as a 15kw boiler will always give 15kw ouput but a 15kw HP will give 14.5kw at outside/flow temps of 7C/35C but under the above conditions of 0C/45C "only" 9.8kw, this is because the "thermal input" from the compressor motor is only 3.5/4kw.
However, like it or not, they will be increasingly more common especially with new builds/increasing levels of insulation which leads to lower flow temps = higher COP= more competitive, also smaller units. They are being installed here in a very large proportion of new builds, some have a separate HP for hot water production, others just heat the hot water to ~ 40C which is boosted once/week to 60/65c with a immersion for legionella protection.

 

[gpbeck]

Over reaction Jim.

The Gas Man will take a hiatus from gas boiler installs for a period of time.

ASHP's will be installed on thousands of homes, by companies that have secluded Government Contracts to install these systems.
All tax payers will be contributing to these systems being installed.

When, in 2, 3 or 4 years, these systems become too much of an issue for the homeowner or the Goverment Funded company that installed them, the company will close or go bankrupt, leaving the home owner to contact their local Gas Man to re-install a gas boiler ( at the home owners own expense )

[ In a Nutshell ]

Scandal, public enquiry, demands for compensation.

 

[RoryD]

I'm getting so sick of the media and tories plugging ashp's like they are the solution to all our heating needs.

Latest news today, £5k grant towards the cost of replacing a gas boiler with an ashp. What a joke.

Every ashp system I've worked on and installed runs the heating at 40 degrees, great for a new build with fantastic insulation and underfloor heating but just simply wouldn't work in most of the houses in England.

Why is this never mentioned in the media?

Air source should be the last thing we do not the first, the first should be insulation and upsizing pipework.

Just think of all them new builds, built in the last 30 years with microbore pipework, some barely run on gas boilers nevermind air source.

It makes me wonder what other things the tories pretend to know what they are talking about

I think one of Boris' mates manufactures ashp's....

ASHP's will work if installed correctly in any property. As you rightly point out the pipe sizing and insulation is critical to that.It's always been the case but installers themselves are neglecting to do that...even before the tories came in to encourage migration. In a few short years we are going to be reliant on Russian Gas. They have been proven to use this as a weapon - Ukraine - so we have to find alternatives. It is also environmentally cleaner. I think this place is great to share professional views and advice. My experience is that things get messy when we start getting political mate. What needs to happen is that installers should be more honest when quoting, fitting and 'effing off' will have the system working but it will cost a fortune to run if pipework isn't upgraded. This is good technology.

 

[jim843]

I’m glad this is being discussed.

My home was built 1890. End terrace. Totally unfit for modern living! I’ve spent last 7 years renovating as best I can: insulation in loft, under floor, etc. But walls are solid in a few places. There wasn’t a damp proof course so I fit one where I could.

I have solar panels and would love to reduce carbon emissions but based on what I’ve read a heat pump will not work well in a house like mine.

To me the solution is insulated render but I imagine the cost on a 3 storey would be unaffordable.

Plus my back wall backs onto the neighbours yard. Can’t imagine they’d be happy if I remove 200mm from their already tiny yard with thick insulation!

 

[jim843]

ASHP's will work if installed correctly in any property. As you rightly point out the pipe sizing and insulation is critical to that.

In your opinion would a heat pump work in my home (see above for more detail).

Built around 1890. Solid walls to front and rear. High ceilings. Draughty!

 

[pewe]

ASHP's will work if installed correctly in any property. will have the system working but it will cost a fortune to run if pipework isn't upgraded. This is good technology.

What would pipework have to be upgraded to in order to work efficiently?
For example we have 10 radiators (about 60,000 BTU) on a 15mm piped circuit run from a gas combi boiler.
Someone tried to talk us into installing an electric combi, with solar panels to run it in the daytime and batteries to run it in the evening.
From comments I've read whilst trying to do some research, it appears that at a cost of over £12,000 plus installation it would not be a wise expenditure without upgrading insulation, and the size of all the radiators first.

 

[gmartine]

^^^ I'd like to see a working example of that and interrogate the owners, you'd need a decent array of solar panels to do everything as well as a large battery pack or it'll cost you a fortune to run as well.

I watched this a while ago and can't remember the numbers but in principle it utilises many of the same things you may need cept we don't know how he heats his house.

 

[John.g]

I know the thread title is ASHPs but there is no mention of storage heaters which are powered from renewable energy, one would think that they could play some even small part.
Some of them like the Dimplex Quantum can actually retain heat unlike the old ones where it leaked away during the day.

 

[Ric2013]

What would pipework have to be upgraded to in order to work efficiently?
For example we have 10 radiators (about 60,000 BTU) on a 15mm piped circuit run from a gas combi boiler.
Someone tried to talk us into installing an electric combi, with solar panels to run it in the daytime and batteries to run it in the evening.[....]

Okay. Electric combi/PV combination and ASHP are different. The ASHP will work better at low flow temperatures, so you need thicker pipes and bigger radiators to give the same heat output with cooler water. With PV and electric combi, you have no particular need to reduce the flow temperature (in a nutshell).

I hope I'm not being political in questioning the technical validity of proposed solutions. I'm trying not to be, but I suppose we all have our biases. There is a sense in which renewables will push the output of the grid up at certain times of day and conventional power stations (especially nukes) are not easy to shut down and restart quickly, plus they may be running idle to give the grid some excess capacity for cloudy and calm moments, advert breaks (kettles!), etc. So may as well run ASHP under such conditions on houses where they are suited, and retrofitted improved insulation etc to existing stock may make a lot of it suited to ASHP. Not all of it - I agree!

What's the deal when it comes to high RH, however, as is typical in the British climate? The above charts ignore R.H. which can be 80 - 90% in the U.K.. My understanding of the problems C.A.T. (West Wales) had with its heat pump was that it (obviously) increased the R.H. of the outside air to dewpoint where it hit the evaporator and then, since the evaporator surface was below 0°C, frost formed instead of the condensate just dripping off. At which point, either they needed to use a defrost resistive electric heater coil to defrost the evaporator, or the ASHP no longer worked. This, at C.A.T., was dropping the C.O.P. to below 1. Is there a way of avoiding this? My feeling is that there probably is not, and that the sensible thing to do in this case is to avoid installing a defrost coil and switch to conventional resistive electric heating (or gas etc) in such circumstances, reserving the A.S.H.P to the warmer months of the heating season. If there is a better alternative, I would genuinely like to hear it. I would be open to fitting an ASHP even on my own house if I thought it would work well.

 

[Jones82]

I've started insulating where every I can and advising customers to do the same, especially when floors are up or work been carried out. I've also started oversizing radiators and pipework, another advantage to this is the gas boiler flow temperature can be turned down, increasing efficiency. I don't want to get political or start pointing fingers but the ashp news story that I heard was woefully light on the real details and if we are to belive the rest of the media, time is running out when it comes to climate change.

I do feel its bad journalism and bad government to gloss over all these key details with a "£5k grant for ASHP"

I think the truth is a £5k grant makes money for someone somewhere, where as insulating britain and seriously addressing our move to renewables is going to cost massive amounts of money not make it.

I'm also concerned that many an old vunerable customer is going to be misold an air source heat pump, only to find they've spent way too much money on a poor installation.

 

[cjg]

old vunerable customer will be ripped off by so called hp installers, every tom dick and harry will be starting to sell and installand rip the govment off, then close down. when the sh~t hits the fan,
and now we are all on leccy there will be power cuts no cooking, heating, cars charge, lighting.
and best of all the price will double or more how f in daft are we gettting

 

[John.g]

But eventually of course, NUCLEAR power will be the new saviour.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Insulation is key let’s say you have a 500w load on a heat pump you need a 2.0m x 0.6 k2 rad

Gas boiler 6x6 k2

 

[brum]

I'm getting so sick of the media and tories plugging ashp's like they are the solution to all our heating needs.

Latest news today, £5k grant towards the cost of replacing a gas boiler with an ashp. What a joke.

Every ashp system I've worked on and installed runs the heating at 40 degrees, great for a new build with fantastic insulation and underfloor heating but just simply wouldn't work in most of the houses in England.

Why is this never mentioned in the media?

Air source should be the last thing we do not the first, the first should be insulation and upsizing pipework.

Just think of all them new builds, built in the last 30 years with microbore pipework, some barely run on gas boilers nevermind air source.

It makes me wonder what other things the tories pretend to know what they are talking about

I think one of Boris' mates manufactures ashp's....

you cant blame the tories ffs

 

[Jones82]

you cant blame the tories ffs

I don't want to get into a political argument but the tories have been in power for 11 years next year.

Their current energy policy is woefully lacking leadership and ambition.

In my opnion they are the party of self interest and corruption and I've seen little to dissuede me otherwise. That is not to say labour are any better.

Here's a good example, did you know that privatised water companies have paid £54 billion to their shareholders since 1991? Imagine if that was money was reinvested in our infrastructure instead of making rich people richer.

How much do you think the energy companies are making?

Honest prediction? We are going to see a climate incident on a scale not seen in human history which will force the entire global population to take this more seriously.

Thats my opinion and I hope I'm wrong

 

[SimonG]

I dont want to get into a political argument but.

Should have left it with the first statement.

It's a plumbing forum not a government bashing forum.

 

[Jones82]

Ok I apologise but it was a direct question how is it the tories fault.

 

[Sparkgap]

Caveat Emptor!!! A few years ago I had a commercial installation at a community centre. UFH, ASHP, total heat losses for the building about 70kW. ASHP manufacturer quoted for a unit, sparkies checked loading for new substation transformer which was being replaced with another which was already on site and which would give sufficient spare capacity for future improvements. I step up and throw big spanner in the works: what was the ASHP output for the client's design conditions (-4C outside temp)? Manufacturer comes back with quote for 100kW unit and spare substation capacity virtually disappears! Always check outputs at the design conditions, not what the manufacturers test them at!

Currently have a project going on: existing 12 year old designer house, UFH, acres of glass. Major extension being built (about 90% floor area increase!) also with UFH and a/c being fitted to new and existing rooms as amount of glass is causing issues with overheating. VRV system going in so that in summer a/c can dump heat directly into HWS system and in effect give free hot water. Client is not short of a bob or three but still complaining about running costs (currently £15-20k/yr for three people!!!).

Talking of running costs, latest figures from Nottingham Energy Partnership give ASHP (assumed 270% efficiency, electric at 22.2p/kWh) at 8.22p/kWh and mains gas (assumed 90% efficiency) at 4.88p/kWh. Why do I want to change my gas boiler for something which is going to cost me twice as much (even assuming I had a suitable heating system for it)?

 

[BobbyJoe]

Hi everyone,

I bought my small flat (built late 60s) about 2 years ago and got a new gas combi boiler as well as other upgrades as the flat needed fixing up.
My question is, is it mandatory by the government to get air source heat pump installed? I couldn't afford it even with the grant help but am feeling a little worried about it as I am happy with hot water and heating in my flat and don't want to or be forced to change it.

Also for those who live in council let properties do they have any rights to refuse ASHP or does the council over rule this change?

Any advice would be really appreciated thank you.