Back boiler without gas fire

[willing2learn]

Morning all, I've got a customer that has bought a place to rent. She has a baxi Bermuda, but wants to get rid of the fire and keep the BBU. Is it safe to remove the fire and cap? She wants to just put some sort of cover over the front with sufficient ventilation.

any thoughts before I go round to do landlords checks?

 

[Atouchofgas]

In one word NO. They share the same flue, so how would you stop the pocs?

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

No, they were designed to work together

 

[willing2learn]

Cheers fellas.

 

[Reg Man]

Don't like to sound rude or patronising, but I am surprised you did not know BBU's can't be used with out the fire they came with. There are regular Photo's of this, in the Gas Engineer magazine eye spy section. Any way we all learn something new every day, so it was best you asked the question.

 

[willing2learn]

No, that's cool, if I'm unsure, I'll always ask first.

 

[Reg Man]

We are seeing fewer and fewer BBU's these days, and there is a lot of regulation on how they are installed. Most problems come when the chimney enclosure has not been adequately sealed, or they have not been serviced properly.

 

[diamondgas]

You can isolate the gas supply to the fire willing2learn but the fire needs to be left attached and uncovered. You need more than just a supply of ventilation for an open flue to work correctly

 

[Reg Man]

You can also keep the fire and make the boiler redundant by leaving in place, but you must cap off and remove the boilers gas valve.

 

[johnnyplumb]

You can also keep the fire and make the boiler redundant by leaving in place, but you must cap off and remove the boilers gas valve.

some would say you cant, or maybe should'nt
you can do whatever you want though, if your willing to put your neck on the line
ask baxi what they think about doing this

 

[buckley plumb]

I asked manufacturer once and was told yes as long as I cap the gas to the boiler - did it with iron plug and removed gas valve.cant remember if it was baxi or glowworm back boiler

 

[johnnyplumb]

that's not what baxi told me, i believe the e-mail they sent was along the lines of we dont recommend it, cant remember the exact wording.

 

[johnnyplumb]

here's the wording, straight from the horses mouth so to speak,

Unfortunately it is not possible to isolate the back boiler section of a Bermuda fire and boiler combination and retain the use of the fire front. The Bermuda requires on annual servicing, a spillage test to be carried out on the back boiler, the fire front, and. then both fire and boiler together. Isolating the back boiler will not enable this to take place and as such will contravene our manufacturer's installation and service instructions and the gas safety regulations. I hope this explains the situation to you more clearly but if we can be of further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us.

Regards, ( Baxi Technical Services)

 

[lame plumber]

on asking Baxi the question the written response was they dont condone the capping off and use of either the bbu/or fire but if you do you must ensure the correct operation of the flue at all times. So you can, but if you do, be it on your own neck as they wont say you can, so when your customer sues you later down the line and baxi appears for the prosecution, prepare to have a large pole pushed all the way in!.

So they changed their letter since mine to be clearer now

 

[diamondgas]

Sounds like a litigation expert wrote that johnnyplumb ... As far as I am concerned both appliances work independently of each other and together when required on the same flue.... designed that way and used that way throughout the length and breadth of the country! If a custard decided to use only the fire for the duration of their life in that property they'd be safe ... Likewise if they chose to use the boiler for the duration they'd also be as safe! Why else would it be designed to be used independently and together? Alas folk are just getting scared and so use words that will not incriminate themselves ... IMHO

 

[lame plumber]

Sounds like a litigation expert wrote that johnnyplumb ... As far as I am concerned both appliances work independently of each other and together when required on the same flue.... designed that way and used that way throughout the length and breadth of the country! If a custard decided to use only the fire for the duration of their life in that property they'd be safe ... Likewise if they chose to use the boiler for the duration they'd also be as safe! Why else would it be designed to be used independently and together? Alas folk are just getting scared and so use words that will not incriminate themselves ... IMHO

totally agree, but leaves us in a sticky situation though

 

[diamondgas]

totally agree, but leaves us in a sticky situation though

Sticky as in the manufacturers don't back you up? The appliances in question are probably older than the Baxi person writing the carp above .. never seen or worked on an open flued appliance in their life and have only their company's reputation at heart when they write a response and not the customer or yourself... IMHO

 

[Reg Man]

Sorry Johnny, Worked directly with Baxi with this one in conjunction with CORGI at the time, when I was a regulator in the industry. A CORGI Technical Bulletin was published at this time with regards to using the gas fire on a redundant back boiler. Baxi may have changed their view on this now, but the guidance was given in the 1990's and agree it is not an ideal situation but does not make it unsafe if you cap off properly and it passes all the statutory checks. Common sense used, because you don't have to have the BBU on if you use the fire under normal conditions. The reason for capping the boiler gas valve, is to prevent any risk of the BBU firing up when its not connected to the water side of the heating.

 

[arran197]

Could you leave the BBU connected and have some way of cooling it by connecting it to the new system (presuming a new ch system has been installed) or a rad in the a/c or something when required. The boiler could then be tested on service? Bit of a crap way of doing things, but if the customer was adamant the fire front couldn't be replaced it would get round the problem.

 

[Nostrum]

When I asked Baxi about using the fire without the boiler I got a reply similar to reg man's example. The problem was that they refused to supply me with written confirmation.
To me that's enough for me to decline doing it. Those fires look **** anyway so stop being tight and fill the gap with a £99 electric inset.

the thing with bbu's are their pilot keeps the flue warm at all times. With it being a 4" liner, the cross section reduces draft and the liners are never well insulated so the chances of spillage in the first 10-15 mins is a lot greater than with a fire in a brick chimney. Plus the design of the BBU means there is a greater chance of spillage leaking out and avoiding the FSD if its got one. Never liked the idea even if Baxi would have agreed in writing.

 

[diamondgas]

When I asked Baxi about using the fire without the boiler I got a reply similar to reg man's example. The problem was that they refused to supply me with written confirmation.
To me that's enough for me to decline doing it. Those fires look **** anyway so stop being tight and fill the gap with a £99 electric inset.

all down to personal preference IMHO ... I love the LFE baxi brought out G3 and beyond I think they're known as, barouque, something like that? ... Does what it's supposed to do, give out heat and look a bit like a living flame fire!

Anyhoo's I would leave it attached without any qualms provided it passed neccesary tests

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

I love the way in the baxi statement it says the gas cant be capped to the bbu and still supply the fire, they obviously dont know their own product

 

[Ermintrude]

You can also keep the fire and make the boiler redundant by leaving in place, but you must cap off and remove the boilers gas valve.

What about leaving boiler open or drilling the block. No one wants a pressure cooker!

 

[Reg Man]

Could you leave the BBU connected and have some way of cooling it by connecting it to the new system (presuming a new ch system has been installed) or a rad in the a/c or something when required. The boiler could then be tested on service? Bit of a crap way of doing things, but if the customer was adamant the fire front couldn't be replaced it would get round the problem.

Definitely not The fire and the BBU go together. Remove the fire a the BBU is then unsafe.

 

[johnnyplumb]

Sounds like a litigation expert wrote that johnnyplumb ... As far as I am concerned both appliances work independently of each other and together when required on the same flue.... designed that way and used that way throughout the length and breadth of the country! If a custard decided to use only the fire for the duration of their life in that property they'd be safe ... Likewise if they chose to use the boiler for the duration they'd also be as safe! Why else would it be designed to be used independently and together? Alas folk are just getting scared and so use words that will not incriminate themselves ... IMHO

compensation culture we live in nowadays i'm afraid, everywhere you look ppi this , have you been injured at work, no win no fee , etc, etc
i'am not surprised with there reply, just what you would expect, covering there @rse