Balancing rads

[stratplus]

Does anyone actually do this after an install? I know its for efficiency especially with a condensing boiler but does anyone do it?
I've never known anyone do it. Full install, all rad valves fully open, all getting hot, job done.

 

[wattsie1987]

I do but its not as straight forward or efficient as you think it helps a bit but not massively unless all rads are massively oversized. I find the space the rads going in cosmetics and noise all give issues.

 

[Best]

I always try to balance a system if I do any work. Even if I am only replacing a circulating pump or sometimes servicing a boiler & checking the heating - especially if people comment on not enough heat in some rooms etc.
I am talking about simply doing it without taking temperature readings of pipes to each rad, but just reducing flow to each rad as they get closer to boiler until the nearest LS is as far closed as possible without being noisy.
If you don't balance a heating system it will not work properly & some parts of circuits may barely heat if at all, particularily in winter. After all, what I describe as each rad on a system is a short circuit & they derate the performance of the pump if the first rads are full flow. Worst is an open pipe circuit - like an unbalanced coil in a cylinder or an old fashioned pipe only towel rail, or a bypass valve left full open.

 

[Best]

Look at it this way - If you fitted 2 pipes say, 30m length & joined only one rad at the far end, without water in them & tried blowing through one where they begin. Then join another rad or two closer to where they begin, leaving their valves fully on. Blow through the pipes now & you will easily blow through the first rads, but not the far one which will have more resistance because of length of run.

 

[kozak1968]

I always balance the system. You usually need another visit to get it right. Using trvs kind of changes this. Most customers just leave trvs set on 5 so you need to balance the system

 

[Rybo_1]

I always balance when I'm on the job. Be it a full install or a pump/rad change. Saves any callbacks again. I'd much rather spend a bit more time on site getting it spot on the first time im there

 

[stratplus]

Every system I've commissioned over last 7-8 yrs every rad was roasting. Didn't need to balance any rads.

 

[iiplumbing]

The human hand can detect temperature variations of about +- 2degC so you don't need to take temperature readings anyway.

In commercial and industrial installations the balancing of ALL systems is vital. From a purist point of view I would have thought that it is good practice to balance the system.

From a technical point of view once again good practice.

From a TRV valve authority point of view good practice.

From a time cost money point of view, not essential so why do it?

I think that as professional plumbers we should all be practicing good practice even if it takes some time, we would get more respect from the public if we explain why we are taking time to get it right and we might have to re-visit to "polish off" the balance.

TRV's have an undershoot/overshoot range of +-2degC that's a 4 degree variation on the room temperature from a type of valve that is basically cr*p at controlling room temp (stick it behind a curtain and cover it how is it going to detect room temp?

Then add into the mix that the TRV is trying to close against the full head of the pump and it wont be very good at shutting of the flow as it gets close to the point of "control"

SO as a heating design engineer I have learnt how and why we should balance the system and as a professional plumber I cannot see any reason to not do it with a domestic installation

Don't get me started on domestic controls its a passion of mine you would soon learn that the value of fitting condensing boilers is simply a waste of time if you run it at full chat and don't hook it up to a self learning optimised PID controlled weather compensated control system, and as for a boiler only having one set point for both its heating and hot water control temp settings what a waste of time in terms of efficiency.

Rant over

Russ

 

[stratplus]

The human hand can detect temperature variations of about +- 2degC so you don't need to take temperature readings anyway.

In commercial and industrial installations the balancing of ALL systems is vital. From a purist point of view I would have thought that it is good practice to balance the system.

From a technical point of view once again good practice.

From a TRV valve authority point of view good practice.

From a time cost money point of view, not essential so why do it?

I think that as professional plumbers we should all be practicing good practice even if it takes some time, we would get more respect from the public if we explain why we are taking time to get it right and we might have to re-visit to "polish off" the balance.

TRV's have an undershoot/overshoot range of +-2degC that's a 4 degree variation on the room temperature from a type of valve that is basically cr*p at controlling room temp (stick it behind a curtain and cover it how is it going to detect room temp?

Then add into the mix that the TRV is trying to close against the full head of the pump and it wont be very good at shutting of the flow as it gets close to the point of "control"

SO as a heating design engineer I have learnt how and why we should balance the system and as a professional plumber I cannot see any reason to not do it with a domestic installation

Don't get me started on domestic controls its a passion of mine you would soon learn that the value of fitting condensing boilers is simply a waste of time if you run it at full chat and don't hook it up to a self learning optimised PID controlled weather compensated control system, and as for a boiler only having one set point for both its heating and hot water control temp settings what a waste of time in terms of efficiency.

Rant over

Russ

My head hurts

 

[iiplumbing]

What I am saying strat is that we should balance the rads because

a) we can
and
b) its good practice

 

[village idiot]

What I am saying strat is that we should balance the rads because

a) we can
and
b) its good practice

GOOD RANT THOUGH. I hope you feel better now you've got that off your chest

Quite true, but after an install, I do not go over the top trying to balance the system?
I check every radiator (ofcourse) to ensure they are all throwing out satisfactory heat. If they are, that is it for me.

 

[iiplumbing]

GOOD RANT THOUGH. I hope you feel better now you've got that off your chest

Quite true, but after an install, I do not go over the top trying to balance the system?
I check every radiator (ofcourse) to ensure they are all throwing out satisfactory heat. If they are, that is it for me.

Ohh village don't get me going again. making sure they chuck out heat and that's it is hardly a "professional" approach is it?

 

[SimonG]

If everything gets hot its left. If there are issues then its balanced. Doesnt really matter once cust starts messing with trv's.

 

[SimonG]

But then I use silicone on wastes

 

[village idiot]

Ohh village don't get me going again. making sure they chuck out heat and that's it is hardly a "professional" approach is it?

No it isn't. The time I spend on a job will depend on the customers ability and willingness to pay for my time.
As an example, I do not work weekends but went to look at a water leak in airing cupboard today as custard called in a panic and specifically said he will pay my weekend rates without any quibble. Attended and just remedied. Will be going there tomorrow to replace pipework even though my tomorrow is ''over booked'', his job takes priority as he is willing to pay.

I have never left a heating system and been called back because one or two radiators are not heating up. I ensure they are before I leave. For those customers who are willing to pay, I go out of my way to DO IT RIGHT.

Also, yesterday, I turned up at a customers house unannounced to dose the system with inhibitant (they had removed some rads to decorate and phoned in a panic when they couldn't get heating oe hot water. I talked them through topping up the system but went there today to protect it even though I could have done nothing). And I did not charge them a penny. WHY I hear you say? Because they are a good paying customer. Tells you where the keys are and lets you get on with it. Have had many recomendations from them.

 

[iiplumbing]

But then I use silicone on wastes

Oh Mr G how could you?!!!!!!

You wind up merchant lol

 

[iiplumbing]

If everything gets hot its left. If there are issues then its balanced. Doesnt really matter once cust starts messing with trv's.

Messing with TRV's do not mess with the balance of the system, that's the job of the LSV's to balance and the TRV's to control.

I am sure you know that and trying to mess with me Sunday night X factor heaven (lol)

 

[iiplumbing]

@ Village

Hey mate, I'm not saying your not a professional, I was just commenting on your comment

"making sure they chuck out heat and that's it "

There's more to making the system behave properly by balancing than you may think!

However, if all the rads chuck out heat evenly and all warm up roughly at the same time to roughly the same temp (when the TRV's are on full for commissioning purposes) then hey you happen to have a "balanced system" weather or not the TRV's are able to closed against the pump pressure/flow rate effectively, well that's another issue.

It's a bit like swimming, just because I can swim doing doggie paddle doesn't mean that I am swimming the most effectively..............it all a matter of degrees (forgive the pun) and style

Do things with style lol

 

[SAW]

I'm with stratplus and SimonG if all rads get hot it's left why make work. All the customer wants is hot rads/warm house. If a system needs balancing it's normally because it's been tacked onto or pipe sizing is down.

 

[iiplumbing]

I'm with stratplus and SimonG if all rads get hot it's left why make work. All the customer wants is hot rads/warm house. If a system needs balancing it's normally because it's been tacked onto or pipe sizing is down.

ok then saw

do you know technically what the importance of getting it all set up properly or are you just winging it

By saying as long as they get hot do you worry about them getting hot equally and to the same temp? Or them getting hot that's good enough for you?

 

[stratplus]

ok then saw

do you know technically what the importance of getting it all set up properly or are you just winging it

By saying as long as they get hot do you worry about them getting hot equally and to the same temp? Or them getting hot that's good enough for you?

Sounds like you may have some useful design info you may be able to share?? Pdf perhaps?

 

[SAW]

So if all the rads get hot and at pretty much the same time the system isn't set up right ? Yes you can set or adjust the pump speed to get the correct flow and return temps.

If there's a rad colder than the others or takes a lot longer than other to heat up then yes it may be down to balancing.

 

[AWheating]

it depends on who 1st fixed it

i normally balance to a degree, very helpful if the reference room is close to the boiler.

 

[Best]

It has surprised me just how important it is to balance radiators, - especially on above average sized homes. If the pump is close to the limit of its output, then it will be critical to balance the system.
I could quote several houses where I have balanced the systems - some of which were in operation, untouched for many years. Those homes heating suddenly started to work well for the first time. Made me look like a professional & all the previous guys look like idiots. I like to balance systems while the heating is on, because the further away rads in the circuits get noticeably hotter as I cut the flow off each rad. I can actually smell the rads as they never had that temperature before. Most successful balancing I have done is where there is a bad short circuit in the system with faulty pipework or a link up boiler or, very commonly a copper cylinder unbalanced. One that had the cylinder robbing the circuit, had the furthest away rads (living rooms) not heating virtually at all until I balanced the cylinder by fitting a gate valve.

 

[SAW]

That's my 10th post, I can get my GS member badge now.