P
PlumbBobBob
you could mention the paint marks to the boss, he may get them repaired as a gesture of goodwill. I know I would.
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From what I have seen the pipe repairs have followed the same route but they do go over one of the main joists. I can see copper vs plastic is a bit explosive of a debate! To be honest I just want the pipes secure, no leaks or weeps (especially as they have now put down external marine ply for the floor boards and put the levelling solution down and will now put tiles down today I think).
Unfortunately I am at work today but the boss is sitting down with my partner to work out the new costs and he did indicate (although only verbally) that he would offer me some form of deal/compensation for the distress he knows he has caused. I will ask her to mention about the marks as literally our small spare bedroom is half full of their tools. I wouldn't mind but me being me I would have placed carpet protection down in the centre of the room away from walls for all their tools to go but they have pushed it all against one wall.
Many thanks again for so many responses and the support and suggestions.
Unfortunately I am at work today but the boss is sitting down with my partner to work out the new costs and he did indicate (although only verbally) that he would offer me some form of deal/compensation for the distress he knows he has caused. I will ask her to mention about the marks as literally our small spare bedroom is half full of their tools. I wouldn't mind but me being me I would have placed carpet protection down in the centre of the room away from walls for all their tools to go but they have pushed it all against one wall.
Many thanks again for so many responses and the support and suggestions.
Just an update, came home yesterday, walked into our bedroom and they have drilled two holes right through from the bathroom to the bedroom! Looks like they were drilling in the boxing in wood and have just drilled too far.
I spoke to the boss and they have confirmed they will repair and make good but yet another mistake that again makes me question their competency.
I spoke to the boss and they have confirmed they will repair and make good but yet another mistake that again makes me question their competency.
I has been quiet for a few days,hope this is a good sign.Assessing this as a whole ,it has been interesting to have the importance of communication with the customer reinforced.It also demonstrates that even doing checks on a tradesman/company,this one had 3,is not a certain way to get a trouble free,quality job.I hope you have been able to negotiate on the final price as was promised.I still find the raising of the price of materials unacceptable after being agreed.Then there is the matter of how the work was carried out.Even if you are reasonably happy with the final outcome,do not fall soft.It would be interesting to know how it all went.
R
Radioman
Further to the above and before you pay the balance. The consumer act changed in Oct 2015, I suggest you bone up on it and make your contractor aware that you are aware of your rights and his liability which now stretches to 6 years not 12 months. On the subject of liability, ask your contractor for a hard copy of his public liability insurance and make sure it covers works carried out by employees and sub contractors, phone the insurance company and make sure it is still valid. To be covered by the contractors insurance they must be on PAYE not self employed. If SE they must each have PLI. Your sparks must be Part P self certifying which means he has the authority to issue a Part P building regulation certificate in his own name or in the name of his company. If he is not then you will need to get local building controls in now before the jobs done. It is a criminal act to work on a wet room without that certificate being issued. Don't be fobbed off, this is serious. Also take photos of the substructure before tiling. All substructure in wet areas must be waterproof. Plaster board and plywood is not enough. It is most important that you understand that the first 30 days and 6 months are very important to your rights.
I have just had to help an acquaintance after a so called bathroom expert ruined their property. They where checktrade etc. Ended up in court and the so called electrician got a suspended sentence.
I have just had to help an acquaintance after a so called bathroom expert ruined their property. They where checktrade etc. Ended up in court and the so called electrician got a suspended sentence.
Thank you for the further comments, in general things have got worse unfortunately to the point where me and the owner have pretty much had a communication breakdown.
The price has remained the same but they have agreed to put right any damage so we will see. I am unsure on the certificates and at the moment I am just hoping they complete the works to an acceptable standard as any further probing by me directly with them I think is going to cause big problems. As far as I am aware all is waterproof, they did put external marine ply down on the floor and stated that they filled and waterproofed all the floor before putting the levelling compound down. Unfortunately taking photos has proved a bit difficult as we haven't always had that opportunity.
I probably had the most worrying phone call I have ever had with the owner when he stated they would arrive at 10:30 then texted to say 11:30 then by 13:30 hadn't turned up. I sent him a polite but firm text explaining that I wasn't happy and that this wasn't the first time we had issues with their timekeeping and he effectively tore into me stating that he runs a successful business and I have to work around him, any times he gives are not guaranteed and I will need to accept that, I'm too controlling, I should give them a key to the property and not look at the bathroom until it is complete then I wouldn't moan so much, if he has an emergency he will prioritise that over us and I have to accept that, etc. In essence it was like he was doing me a favour not taking £000's of pounds off me for work I have paid for.
I tried to explain my side but he wasn't happy and stated that the work would be completed on the agreed date and whatever times they wanted to work they would and as long as they completed the work I should accept it and stop complaining. I tried to explain that I was simply making him clear that when I pay for a service and get given a time of arrival I expect that time to be adhered to (within reason) and if not to be notified. He felt that I was dictating when he had to be at my property even though it was him giving me the times!
To be honest the whole ordeal has made me feel really ill and I am really surprised that someone who is accredited on so many levels can treat me, my family, and my home in such a disparaging manner. I have spoken to Which as he is a trusted trader and they have confirmed that they feel the treatment is unacceptable and have recommended I allow them to complete the works, make sure it is to an acceptable standard, and then consider a complaint. Funnily enough on the checkatrade website one of the guarantees the traders have to sign up for is 'Keep appointments and arrive on time (calling in advance if they need to reschedule)' so maybe he has forgotten that!
They have also left a heap of rubbish outside the property for about a week now and every time we remind them to remove it they just say they will tomorrow and never do.
The price has remained the same but they have agreed to put right any damage so we will see. I am unsure on the certificates and at the moment I am just hoping they complete the works to an acceptable standard as any further probing by me directly with them I think is going to cause big problems. As far as I am aware all is waterproof, they did put external marine ply down on the floor and stated that they filled and waterproofed all the floor before putting the levelling compound down. Unfortunately taking photos has proved a bit difficult as we haven't always had that opportunity.
I probably had the most worrying phone call I have ever had with the owner when he stated they would arrive at 10:30 then texted to say 11:30 then by 13:30 hadn't turned up. I sent him a polite but firm text explaining that I wasn't happy and that this wasn't the first time we had issues with their timekeeping and he effectively tore into me stating that he runs a successful business and I have to work around him, any times he gives are not guaranteed and I will need to accept that, I'm too controlling, I should give them a key to the property and not look at the bathroom until it is complete then I wouldn't moan so much, if he has an emergency he will prioritise that over us and I have to accept that, etc. In essence it was like he was doing me a favour not taking £000's of pounds off me for work I have paid for.
I tried to explain my side but he wasn't happy and stated that the work would be completed on the agreed date and whatever times they wanted to work they would and as long as they completed the work I should accept it and stop complaining. I tried to explain that I was simply making him clear that when I pay for a service and get given a time of arrival I expect that time to be adhered to (within reason) and if not to be notified. He felt that I was dictating when he had to be at my property even though it was him giving me the times!
To be honest the whole ordeal has made me feel really ill and I am really surprised that someone who is accredited on so many levels can treat me, my family, and my home in such a disparaging manner. I have spoken to Which as he is a trusted trader and they have confirmed that they feel the treatment is unacceptable and have recommended I allow them to complete the works, make sure it is to an acceptable standard, and then consider a complaint. Funnily enough on the checkatrade website one of the guarantees the traders have to sign up for is 'Keep appointments and arrive on time (calling in advance if they need to reschedule)' so maybe he has forgotten that!
They have also left a heap of rubbish outside the property for about a week now and every time we remind them to remove it they just say they will tomorrow and never do.
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Bar leaving the rubbish at the front of your property until the job is finished, I find that the rest of your ordeal is totally unacceptable.
Sometimes late starts are unavoidable, but I would consider 10;30 am a very late start.
As for 13;30 - may as well not even turn up.
Sounds like he has a lot of issues / problems elsewhere and you're at the bottom of his list of priorities - not a good situation for you to be in.
Post some pics of the work?
As for final payment - play the game he is playing with you.
Sometimes late starts are unavoidable, but I would consider 10;30 am a very late start.
As for 13;30 - may as well not even turn up.
Sounds like he has a lot of issues / problems elsewhere and you're at the bottom of his list of priorities - not a good situation for you to be in.
Post some pics of the work?
As for final payment - play the game he is playing with you.
Yeah the rubbish outside we have only mentioned twice to him due to the fact that it is so much and it is very near and spilling onto the main pathway on our road and I'm just concerned someone will trip over or hurt themselves as we get a lot of kids playing about in our close. It isn't a major issue as long as they do take it when the work is completed.
We had a couple of 8:30 a.m. starts and everything else really has been after 10:30 and nearer midday. As long as the work is completed fair enough but my big concerns have been that he gives times and very rarely meets them then effectively blames me for trying to get him to stick to the times he has given me.
I have tried to be reasonable but when I picked this firm I done a lot of research and he stated to me he employs 5 teams of 5 bathroom specialists so I felt that it was a big enough firm to cope with the ebb and flow of work projects, emergencies, etc without it compromising our work. However the more I have worked with them the more I get the impression it is him and 2 other people and a sub contracted electrician, I really do not believe he has the other staff. I may be wrong but every single issue they have had or call out has gone via the people working on our project so it makes me suspicious.
Regarding final payment I am trying to be reasonable and to be honest as long as we get the bathroom we want and any damage is fairly repaired then I will pay. However I am seriously considering if anything further goes wrong or things that are promised don't happen then I think I will have to consider complaints via the accreditations he has as I am so disappointed and stressed at his behaviour towards me and the project.
Hopefully the final work will be good but just another small example of my concerns are that my partner noticed that after they had connected the bath filler it was evident the filler had damage to it that was relatively easy to see. Yet he fitted it and only then did they start putting protective covers over it. Only by us pointing it out has it been agreed the filler will be taken off and replaced. He has agreed to this so fair enough but he must have seen it when fitting it.
I'll try to get some pics if I can, thanks for all the replies.
We had a couple of 8:30 a.m. starts and everything else really has been after 10:30 and nearer midday. As long as the work is completed fair enough but my big concerns have been that he gives times and very rarely meets them then effectively blames me for trying to get him to stick to the times he has given me.
I have tried to be reasonable but when I picked this firm I done a lot of research and he stated to me he employs 5 teams of 5 bathroom specialists so I felt that it was a big enough firm to cope with the ebb and flow of work projects, emergencies, etc without it compromising our work. However the more I have worked with them the more I get the impression it is him and 2 other people and a sub contracted electrician, I really do not believe he has the other staff. I may be wrong but every single issue they have had or call out has gone via the people working on our project so it makes me suspicious.
Regarding final payment I am trying to be reasonable and to be honest as long as we get the bathroom we want and any damage is fairly repaired then I will pay. However I am seriously considering if anything further goes wrong or things that are promised don't happen then I think I will have to consider complaints via the accreditations he has as I am so disappointed and stressed at his behaviour towards me and the project.
Hopefully the final work will be good but just another small example of my concerns are that my partner noticed that after they had connected the bath filler it was evident the filler had damage to it that was relatively easy to see. Yet he fitted it and only then did they start putting protective covers over it. Only by us pointing it out has it been agreed the filler will be taken off and replaced. He has agreed to this so fair enough but he must have seen it when fitting it.
I'll try to get some pics if I can, thanks for all the replies.
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R
Radioman
Unfortunately this is a story I have heard all to often. He sounds like a real bully boy. To employ that many people on PAYE, say 10 or 15, the turnover would need to be in the hundreds of thousands. What he does is bring in self employed sub contractors as and when he needs them which means he cannot guarantee any labour, such as a tiler or plasterer turning up on time. Easy enough to check staff and turnover via company house if he is ltd. I would also,watch the vat content on the final bill, check the vat number with HMRC. I predict that once you have paid in full you will never see him again so be prepared for that. Perhaps you could give us a complete break down of what is being fitted so we can tell you if it is compatible and legal with your existing boiler and supplies.
How does he plan to get the waste away? Hopefully with a licensed waste carrier and not in the first available hedge!
Whatever you do don't hand over final monies until you have the Part P cert, and you are sure works are completed and damage repaired. What you could do is employ a surveyor to inspect the completed work prior to paying. If he says he belongs to trade bodies such as the Federation of Master Builders etc you could get them involved too.
How does he plan to get the waste away? Hopefully with a licensed waste carrier and not in the first available hedge!
Whatever you do don't hand over final monies until you have the Part P cert, and you are sure works are completed and damage repaired. What you could do is employ a surveyor to inspect the completed work prior to paying. If he says he belongs to trade bodies such as the Federation of Master Builders etc you could get them involved too.
Today should be completion day and yesterday seemed to go better and there didn't appear to be so many concerns. I did contact companies house but they stated they do not require firms to record how many employees they have only who is the owner and a secretary of the business. To be honest as the work is now coming to a close it is a bit immaterial I guess but I really done my research and worked on what was told me to try to avoid some of the issues I have had.
I'm relatively sure the waste will be got rid of legally as they do seem a reputable company on one level but then when I have a range of concerns and the way things have worked I do question things. Anyway they have took a good 50% of the waste from outside our property and the last of it will go today fingers crossed.
With regards to the fittings I only really know the basics like bath, extractor fan, sink, vanity unit, etc. To be fair he has talked through a range of things he has done and why and how he has made everything to current standards but without being an expert I just have to judge him on his word.
Hopefully all will be completed today and on the quote it does state that the electrics will be completed to the '17th edition electrical installation standards'.
I think the best I can do is get the works completed and then work from there, hopefully everything will be fine but if not may then consider next steps.
Many thanks for all the advice and replies.
I'm relatively sure the waste will be got rid of legally as they do seem a reputable company on one level but then when I have a range of concerns and the way things have worked I do question things. Anyway they have took a good 50% of the waste from outside our property and the last of it will go today fingers crossed.
With regards to the fittings I only really know the basics like bath, extractor fan, sink, vanity unit, etc. To be fair he has talked through a range of things he has done and why and how he has made everything to current standards but without being an expert I just have to judge him on his word.
Hopefully all will be completed today and on the quote it does state that the electrics will be completed to the '17th edition electrical installation standards'.
I think the best I can do is get the works completed and then work from there, hopefully everything will be fine but if not may then consider next steps.
Many thanks for all the advice and replies.
R
Radioman
Depends who the sparks is registered with, there are 2 bodies, but you should be handed the certificates before paying up.
http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/guides-and-advice/building-regulations/england/
He will be registered with either NAPIT, ELECSA or NICEIC, but the forms are similar and should be lodged within 7 days of completion ( I think)
http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/guides-and-advice/building-regulations/england/
He will be registered with either NAPIT, ELECSA or NICEIC, but the forms are similar and should be lodged within 7 days of completion ( I think)
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Hi Radioman, as all the electrics were already there does the form/registration still have to be provided/completed as I certainly wasn't given anything by the electrician?
Just an update in general, all work is now completed, bathroom looks good but there is a lack of attention to detail in a range of places. Most of this looks superficial like paint needing touching up, tiles still dirty and needing good clean, doors scuffed, etc. I've done most of this myself now but not really what I expected to have to do considering money spent.
Obviously this is only what I can see so hopefully what I can't see is of good quality, relatively hopeful as I did see bits and bobs as they were going in and tried to look and check what I could over time so fingers crossed.
The damage they caused wasn't all repaired as promised, I had to do a range of painting myself but getting rid of them and having the bathroom completed compensated me to be honest!
Thanks to all who replied as it is very helpful and reassuring to have people giving advice and helping when you are going through these problems.
Just an update in general, all work is now completed, bathroom looks good but there is a lack of attention to detail in a range of places. Most of this looks superficial like paint needing touching up, tiles still dirty and needing good clean, doors scuffed, etc. I've done most of this myself now but not really what I expected to have to do considering money spent.
Obviously this is only what I can see so hopefully what I can't see is of good quality, relatively hopeful as I did see bits and bobs as they were going in and tried to look and check what I could over time so fingers crossed.
The damage they caused wasn't all repaired as promised, I had to do a range of painting myself but getting rid of them and having the bathroom completed compensated me to be honest!
Thanks to all who replied as it is very helpful and reassuring to have people giving advice and helping when you are going through these problems.
R
Radioman
Tell me exactly what work the electrician did in the bathroom, associated circuits and whether the circuit was protected to the level of revision 17. As someone got a belt from a dodgy circuit it would appear that the circuit was not protected or wired correctly.
Any installation or replacement of fittings that already comply need not be notified. For example if there are already downlighters installed that comply to IP 60 or IP65, in other words are fire rated, have an Earth circuit, are protected by an RCB or RCB and are being replaced like for like or a spur to an existing circuit then that should not need to be reported. That is making an assumption that what is already there complies and is safe.
Your contractor has stated that work would be done to revision 17 so I would expect it to be certified and reported even only to cover himself from future legal issues.
Any installation or replacement of fittings that already comply need not be notified. For example if there are already downlighters installed that comply to IP 60 or IP65, in other words are fire rated, have an Earth circuit, are protected by an RCB or RCB and are being replaced like for like or a spur to an existing circuit then that should not need to be reported. That is making an assumption that what is already there complies and is safe.
Your contractor has stated that work would be done to revision 17 so I would expect it to be certified and reported even only to cover himself from future legal issues.
Hi, my understanding is that he has checked and made sure the electric shower is installed correctly (we already had one there before that was removed and replaced) and he has moved the main switch for the shower from the bathroom wall and now just placed it in our cupboard in the bathroom so it is hidden aesthetically. He has also installed a new extractor fan that we never had before.
He has installed new spotlights (we didn't have these before) and I'm not aware that anything else was dealt with via him. He did check our earth wire and it was wired fine but had been left by previous owners of the property on a painted pipe, due to this he just tested it all and moved it further back on the pipe that wasn't painted.
Thanks
He has installed new spotlights (we didn't have these before) and I'm not aware that anything else was dealt with via him. He did check our earth wire and it was wired fine but had been left by previous owners of the property on a painted pipe, due to this he just tested it all and moved it further back on the pipe that wasn't painted.
Thanks
I wonder if anyone can help me with a slight concern I have with our new bathroom toilet.
After flushing the toilet it feels to me like there is a noise/vibration that comes from maybe under the floor or from near the toilet.
It isn't anything major but due to how many issues we had with the bathroom I am a little bit concerned. I have tried to Google it and the nearest I can get to is maybe a 'water hammer effect'. I'm not really sure if it is that as it isn't anything major but you can feel a vibration in the floor after every flush. As soon as the flush has finished there are no further vibrations but I am just a bit concerned.
Does anyone have any advice or opinions?
After flushing the toilet it feels to me like there is a noise/vibration that comes from maybe under the floor or from near the toilet.
It isn't anything major but due to how many issues we had with the bathroom I am a little bit concerned. I have tried to Google it and the nearest I can get to is maybe a 'water hammer effect'. I'm not really sure if it is that as it isn't anything major but you can feel a vibration in the floor after every flush. As soon as the flush has finished there are no further vibrations but I am just a bit concerned.
Does anyone have any advice or opinions?
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Pipes not clipped also prob
Ok thanks, due to issues we had with the installers little bit loath to reach out to them again but guess I might need to.
I think I will test it again tonight and pay more attention to when the 'thud' happens and then I can go back to them with as much info as possible.
To me it seems to flush and when the flush has finished it then has a small 'thud/vibration' occur. However I will try to work out if the thud/vibration occurs straight after flushing or if it only occurs when the toilet cistern has finished filling back up.
Thanks
I think I will test it again tonight and pay more attention to when the 'thud' happens and then I can go back to them with as much info as possible.
To me it seems to flush and when the flush has finished it then has a small 'thud/vibration' occur. However I will try to work out if the thud/vibration occurs straight after flushing or if it only occurs when the toilet cistern has finished filling back up.
Thanks
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If it is water hammer try closing your basin taps fast from fully open does it happen with these
R
Radioman
Based on the above description I would expect a Part P certificate to be supplied, this will be a detailed list of the work carried out, parts supplied, location and a listing of the measurements taken during the testing. Especially important would be the position of the equipment to ensure that they complied with the zones listed in Part P. Also that the fan has a 2 pole isolator positioned outside zone 2. The shower isolator should also be accessible without hinderance. You should also check that the downlights are IP 65 etc etc. That's why the Part P cert is so important.
I've lost count of the number of times we have discovered hidden issues when doing the Part P checks. For example a property that had all the Earth wires in situ but the bonding was not connected to the property earthing pole. Or sockets where earth and neutral where reversed.
The vibration you mention is probably not water hammer as that is associated with the the cistern filling not water exiting the cistern. What it could be is a faulty air admittance valve which allows air into the waste to prevent air locking. It could be boxed in.
https://youtu.be/0RhLt18NPpk
I've lost count of the number of times we have discovered hidden issues when doing the Part P checks. For example a property that had all the Earth wires in situ but the bonding was not connected to the property earthing pole. Or sockets where earth and neutral where reversed.
The vibration you mention is probably not water hammer as that is associated with the the cistern filling not water exiting the cistern. What it could be is a faulty air admittance valve which allows air into the waste to prevent air locking. It could be boxed in.
https://youtu.be/0RhLt18NPpk
Sorry just a further reply and something I will test when I get home, someone I know has said that a small 'thump' when using a half flush on new toilets is normal as the flush valve would be closing with the cistern still half full of water so a 'thump' is to be expected.
They asked me to check a full flush to see if the noise continues as a full flush would have the flush valve closing under its own weight.
Does this sound true to anyone? I'm going to try the full flush when I get home to see if it stops the problem but thought I would ask peoples opinions on here as well.
They asked me to check a full flush to see if the noise continues as a full flush would have the flush valve closing under its own weight.
Does this sound true to anyone? I'm going to try the full flush when I get home to see if it stops the problem but thought I would ask peoples opinions on here as well.
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When you flush, turn the cistern stopcock off.
That way you will know whether it is a water supply problem - water hammer - or a cistern related problem.
Sometimes during flushing, particularly if you have a plastic 90 bend below the outlet of the toilet, that can make a noise as well.
It is true that sometimes with half flush the cisterns do make a noise, due to the weight of the water helping to close the valve, where as full flush the cistern is generally empty and the closing of the valve is not as abrupt.
See how you go
That way you will know whether it is a water supply problem - water hammer - or a cistern related problem.
Sometimes during flushing, particularly if you have a plastic 90 bend below the outlet of the toilet, that can make a noise as well.
It is true that sometimes with half flush the cisterns do make a noise, due to the weight of the water helping to close the valve, where as full flush the cistern is generally empty and the closing of the valve is not as abrupt.
See how you go
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Ok thanks, I'm going to try the full flush and see if that has a thud after as maybe that really is all it is.
The thud isn't loud and there isn't any banging or rattling of pipes just something I haven't experienced before and due to issues I had with installers just makes me wary.
Thanks for the advice.
The thud isn't loud and there isn't any banging or rattling of pipes just something I haven't experienced before and due to issues I had with installers just makes me wary.
Thanks for the advice.
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