Boiler above sink!!!

[John t]

Two years ago British Gas fitted this old gentleman with a worchester Bosch Combi boiler, about 400mm above a kitchen sink. Properly earth bonded but is this legal? Somebody told me that if a Corgi (Gas Safe) engineer entered the property he would have to condemn it. It has already been serviced once and is due another service.
Any advice appreciated thanks

 

[heatman]

it maybe to do with Building regs that no person can touch water and a electrical appliance. ie like bathroom zones
Question would this be allowed if the boiler was covered by a cupboard , even lockable?
maybe best to Ring the manufacturer and ask them what there requirements are, your engineer is only going off guidelines and manufacturers instrustions override guidelines.

 

[oeg]

'Zones' only refer to a room containing a bath or shower, there are no zones above sinks, though common sense may be needed. The only real requirement is whether the IP rating is adequate.

 

[heatman]

ip ratings explained ingress protection

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm! Be interesting to find out how this relates to the new regs about fitting RCD's.

Get the customer to call in Gas safe to check it out. They'll take it up with BG if it is.

Best keep out of it yourself, unless you can prove its an unsafe installation and immediatly dangerous, in that case shut it off and issue a warning notice stating what you think is wrong and what regs it breeches.
Then tell the client to get on to BG to see what they say and if not satisfied tell them to get on to Gassafe.

 

[John t]

Going to make a couple of calls today

 

[oeg]

Hmm! Be interesting to find out how this relates to the new regs about fitting RCD's.

There are no requirements for RCD protection for boilers above sinks, the requirements for RCD'S are 'cables buried less than 50mm in a wall and unprotected by an earthed metallic tube/sheath, most socket outlets, and any circuits in a bathroom'.
If the IP rating is adequate, there's nothing wrong with it (think of electric showers, instantaneous water heaters, etc.)

 

[dontknowitall]

Bags me do the drying up and not the washing.

 

[flat pack]

no one can anwer this ????????????????????????????????????????????
gas safe or not

 

[Dannypipe]

No, it can't be right. I'd class that as NCS at first glance, and then call Gas Safe, I doubt it would be classed as an ID, but I'd still have it checked out to cover my backside. Bit of an odd one!

I've got a day at college tommorow, so I'll see if I can ask my old Gas tutor. He worked for BG for donkeys years and what he don't know aint worth knowing!!

 

[flat pack]

thank danny pipe
but
this post is old and with all the top plum posting so much about a toilet handle
no one knows this ,
and many have gas safe under there wings of there vans??????

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm

Wiring Reg 411.3.3 says Kitchen sockets to have RCD protection if used by an ordinary person as are showers. I would imagine the boiler would come under that.

Anyway being so near to a sink it seems just plain common sense to protect it with an RCD as well as an earthing system, whether its in the Regs or not.

 

[flat pack]

that bernie 2

it not the question of wiring regs but counts#
but more about steam and gas regs
also common sense is not use in gas regs
so what is the regs ??????????????


no good speaking to gas safe their spending the money ,
but not on adverts as said in the
gas installer april 09 ?

 

[Bernie2]

There is a lot of overlap in todays Plumbing between Gas Regs, Building Regs, Water Bye Laws, British Standards and Wiring Regs its getting so you have to know nearly all of them or at least have a basic working knowledge.

I once was showing a class of adult Trainee Plumbers some of the electrical things they would probably be required to do as part of their job. The City and Guilders invigilator went mad. Basically C and G Plumbing really had nothing to do with electrical work. He was right of course.

My argument was, that that was out of date, in reality they would probably touch on electrical work quite a bit, so a basic working knowledge of it was at least useful.

You tell me which your most likely to do now days as a working repair Plumber, mend a boiler or dress up a lead bay?

The guys I was showing intended to go and get jobs where ever they could get one, not work for just specialist lead work companies.

Its not that there isn't a lot in Plumbing without touching electrical stuff, its just that invariably you always seem to come up against it at some point. Without a decent working knowledge of it, your going to be a danger to yourself and the customer.

 

[flat pack]

No one still cant answer the question.
1/ steam issue
2/gas regs issue
3/gas safe British gas fitter correct or not
4/ service once
5/ no common sense

If some of us are gas safe on here this should answer or they is no answer.?

So why is there acs or gas safe
The person who install got pay
The customer said nothing
The person who install it or others 1 year later service it ,and got pay.
Just goes to show how the corgi / safe safe advertising has work in the
last 3 years



Two years ago British Gas fitted this old gentleman with a worchester Bosch Combi boiler, about 400mm above a kitchen sink. Properly earth bonded but is this legal? Somebody told me that if a Corgi (Gas Safe) engineer entered the property he would have to condemn it. It has already been serviced once and is due another service.
Any advice appreciated thanks

 

[Jason.S]

If i can chip in for a mo chaps.

Im a sparky from the electricians forum and if i was carrying out a PIR on this property then it would give me great concern, primarily because of the ip rating under the boiler.

Nearly all boilers i see have very little in the way of IP although the newer Worcester's and GW etc do have seals on the cable entries.

 

[flat pack]

Thank jason s
But again great concern, common sense.
But what we need is fact or the law for this, ?

 

[oeg]

Hmm

Wiring Reg 411.3.3 says Kitchen sockets to have RCD protection if used by an ordinary person as are showers. I would imagine the boiler would come under that.

Not just kitchen sockets, but most socket outlets in a domestic situation have to be RCD protected, the boiler dosn't come under that, unless it's fitted in a room containing a bath or shower.
I'm a qualified electrician specialising in central heating wiring, and have a contract with BG, as already stated, if the IP rating is ok, electrically there is nothing wrong.

 

[flat pack]

Not answers yet.

Is it legal fitted above the sink

 

[dontknowitall]

Flat pack - I don't know the legalities (and I don't do gas either) but whether or not it is illegal I wouldn't like to do the washing up with the boiler a few inches from my face.

I know a boiler's unlikely to explode, but if it's going to, it's more likely when there is a demand for it to work (e.g. hot water required). At least if it's a few feet away you get a tiny chance to turn away from an explosion, whereas if it's at your face level you've hardly any scope for ducking away.

Quite apart from the minute statistic that this might happen and whether it is legal or not, I could never forgive myself if it did and I'd installed it above the kitchen sink.

As an (equally dangerous?) example, it is not illegal for anyone to service an oil boiler. But when the flue gases are not checked how do you know if it's not chucking out carbon monoxide? And this is despite statistics suggesting that around 10% of domestic oil boilers are emitting excess amounts of carbon monoxide.

The laws are not always sensible and I feel common sense should prevail.

 

[Puddle]

In a nut shell
No it is not illegal to instal a boiler above a sink or any electrical appliance as long as installed correctly
and does not go against any gas regs (it should be noted that gas regs are the only regs that are law passed in Parlimant)
If dweling electrical instalation installed correctly there is no added risk
Steam from sink,as above if protetion correct,not a problem
You could argue that steam could cause bridging of any control micro switches affecting gas operation but again if all boiler safty devises correct,siduation covered
Would I fit a boiler above a sink..No,to me its bad practice
But legally not a problem

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

A boiler case is usually made of metal. So you would have a huge electrically conductive surface in front of you and 240 volts to the boiler, with water all over the place when your washing up. The IP rating is an unknown quantity.

That is a dangerous situation and as to fitting RCDs it depends how you isolate it, many boilers are connected via a normal 3 pin shuttered socket and plug. Some people do this to make it easier and quicker to isolate and as there is no reason why they can't do it that way.

Then the Wiring Regs and fitting RCD's must stand I feel.

Incidentally you will probably find that a general duty of care is mentioned in the Gas Regs which I suppose hopes you will use common sense to decide what is dangerous and what isn't. What you can do about it is another thing.

But most boiler manufacturer's installation manuals say that any installation must comply with Wiring Regs.

 

[REDSAW]

think its only 600mm from a bath as well as there is no wiring connection within this zone (a).
might be the only place available or he wouldn;t have got the job done?.
then again if b.g. condemed it it would be for his own benefit, but dont expect a tip...

 

[Puddle]

Hmm!

A boiler case is usually made of metal. So you would have a huge electrically conductive surface in front of you and 240 volts to the boiler, with water all over the place when your washing up. The IP rating is an unknown quantity.

You mention the above because it is against the norm
How many washing machines and dish washers have you seen underneath the sink drainer or positioned next to the sink,in these cases water is being splashed all over them and no one blinks and rightly so,as long as electrical installation and safegaurds are correctl

 

[newbie1]

while not an ideal location water from sink is unlikely to travel upwards and i assume boiler is prob at least 12inches plus above the sink otherwise you would be hitting your head on it and i dont know how hot that water is but steam wld be highly unlikely or you wld be taking the skin off your hands
without getting the book out and checking i havnt seen any limitations for this the prime concern with boilers is flue requirements are complied with