Boiler seal collar on external wall

[ShaunCorbs]

I am yet to fit a flue with a plastic outer air intake but have heard some are changing to this type.
I have seen plenty of rusted flues on modern boilers, so I wasn't scaremongering.
Especially by the seaside where baxis are incorrectly fitted in new apartment blocks.
Ideal and baxi don't allow white to be on show externally because it's cheap thin metal.

Viessmann are totally plastic

 

[Scott_D]

Viessmann are totally plastic

So is Ravenheat I believe

 

[Sharp Point]

And Vokera

 

[Harvest Fields]

So the cheaper boilers?

 

[CHRISX]

The balcony kit is just the plastic exhaust not the metal air intake?

Hello again scott_d,

Further to your comment quoted above:

I think that I have probably seen more Boiler Flues extended beyond Balcony`s using just the normal twin pipe Flue pipe than I have seen extended with a `Balcony & Eaves` extension kit.

I could be totally wrong about this comment as I have never researched it but I am not sure whether ALL Manufacturers even make a `Balcony & Eaves extension kit` ?

I know that they all manufacture a `Plume Management kit` but do they all make a `Balcony & Eaves extension kit` ?

I also notice that at just 1035mm long excluding the terminal that the Baxi Multiflue Balcony kit would probably not be long enough to extend the Flue correctly for many Balcony`s - and at £110.00 each [inc. vat] I wonder how many Heating Engineers would baulk at buying 2 Kits and install the Flue using just the `normal` Flue pipe and Terminal etc. ?

Perhaps that is why I see so many Flues extended just using normal Flue pipe ?

Going back to our original topic of discussion:

If the White outer skin of the Flue pipe must not be visible / exposed in any way because it is susceptible to rusting one of the MOST important points in the Manufacturers Instructions should be that the back of the Flue Terminal MUST slightly enter the hole in the wall so that when the making good is done NONE of the White outer Flue pipe is outside the hole - not even a couple of millimetres.

If the back of the Flue Terminal was even a couple of millimetres past the making good / mortar etc. that would cause a `ring` of white outer pipe between the wall and the back of the Flue Terminal which would be susceptible to rusting.

The Flue Collar is NOT going to prevent some rain running down the wall and going behind the Collar to get to the point where the Flue pipe exits the wall even though the use of a mastic is usually recommended it does not last for the life of the Boiler so the Collar cannot be relied on to prevent what I described.

I wonder how many Boiler Flues are fitted exactly like that / would fall into that category ?

Chris

 

[Scott_D]

Hello again scott_d,

Further to your comment quoted above:

I think that I have probably seen more Boiler Flues extended beyond Balcony`s using just the normal twin pipe Flue pipe than I have seen extended with a `Balcony & Eaves` extension kit.

I could be totally wrong about this comment as I have never researched it but I am not sure whether ALL Manufacturers even make a `Balcony & Eaves extension kit` ?

I know that they all manufacture a `Plume Management kit` but do they all make a `Balcony & Eaves extension kit` ?

I also notice that at just 1035mm long excluding the terminal that the Baxi Multiflue Balcony kit would probably not be long enough to extend the Flue correctly for many Balcony`s - and at £110.00 each [inc. vat] I wonder how many Heating Engineers would baulk at buying 2 Kits and install the Flue using just the `normal` Flue pipe and Terminal etc. ?

Perhaps that is why I see so many Flues extended just using normal Flue pipe ?

Going back to our original topic of discussion:

If the White outer skin of the Flue pipe must not be visible / exposed in any way because it is susceptible to rusting one of the MOST important points in the Manufacturers Instructions should be that the back of the Flue Terminal MUST slightly enter the hole in the wall so that when the making good is done NONE of the White outer Flue pipe is outside the hole - not even a couple of millimetres.

If the back of the Flue Terminal was even a couple of millimetres past the making good / mortar etc. that would cause a `ring` of white outer pipe between the wall and the back of the Flue Terminal which would be susceptible to rusting.

The Flue Collar is NOT going to prevent some rain running down the wall and going behind the Collar to get to the point where the Flue pipe exits the wall even though the use of a mastic is usually recommended it does not last for the life of the Boiler so the Collar cannot be relied on to prevent what I described.

I wonder how many Boiler Flues are fitted exactly like that / would fall into that category ?

Chris

Some manufacturers allow white on show. Vaillant & Worcester for example.
Baxi do not, hence me saying at the start 'is it a baxi' ' no white should be showing' and then you got on your high horse

A correctly fitted flue should be cut the the right length, sealed inside and out and a weather collar fitted, or to the manufacturers instruction. I see plenty done properly and plenty of 'that will do'
Always worth spending an extra 30 minutes to do it properly

 

[Jay Jay]

Totally agree mate ideal and baxi are losing on new builds, as Vaillant have there own new build boiler/social housing boiler this allows them a bit of give if required

 

[CHRISX]

Some manufacturers allow white on show. Vaillant & Worcester for example.
Baxi do not, hence me saying at the start 'is it a baxi' ' no white should be showing' and then you got on your high horse

A correctly fitted flue should be cut the the right length, sealed inside and out and a weather collar fitted, or to the manufacturers instruction. I see plenty done properly and plenty of 'that will do'
Always worth spending an extra 30 minutes to do it properly

Hello again scott-d,

I totally agree that a Boiler Flue should be fitted correctly and I would never have any unnecessary Flue pipe protruding out of a wall as in the photo posted by the OP of the Flue that we are `debating` on here.

You correctly stated that the Manufacturers Instructions should be adhered to and that would include dimensions which if followed correctly would result in a correctly installed Flue without any unnecessary / `prohibited` section of Flue pipe protruding past the wall surface.

BUT - If as You state Baxi [and Ideal] verbally specify [?] `No part of the white flue pipe must be showing / exposed` this should also be highlighted in the Flue Installation Instructions because with previously manufactured Boiler Flues made from Aluminium or an Aluminium Alloy Heating Engineers have often given themselves some `leeway` when measuring Flues and allowed for a slight protrusion of the Flue pipe past the wall surface.

There are thousands [perhaps hundreds of thousands ?] of previously installed Boiler Flues where the Flue pipe protrudes perhaps 25mm past the wall surface to the Terminal.

Because of that `Industry Habit` Baxi and Ideal should highlight their very important specification clearly in the Boiler Flue Installation Instructions - NOT just state `Install as per our Instructions & dimensions`.

I have to ask - How did You become aware of what you have stated about Baxi Boiler Flues / `No white Flue pipe must be seen / exposed` because of the `thin metal` outer skin of the Air Intake pipe ?

Chris

 

[Jay Jay]

It’s in the instruction manual with boiler, also when you go on a training course they tell you then
Hope this helps

 

[CHRISX]

It’s in the instruction manual with boiler, also when you go on a training course they tell you then
Hope this helps

Hello Jay Jay,

Does it actually specify something like:

`None of the Flue pipe must protrude past the external wall surface` - words to that effect ?

I have already acknowledged that if the Manufacturers Instructions / Dimensions are followed correctly there should not be any Flue pipe protruding past the external wall surface but because of the `Industry Habit` that I previously described is the above actually specified in writing ?

I have never seen that specified in writing in the Manufacturers Boiler Instructions or in any Flue Kit Installation Instructions.

Chris

 

[Scott_D]

Hello again scott-d,

I totally agree that a Boiler Flue should be fitted correctly and I would never have any unnecessary Flue pipe protruding out of a wall as in the photo posted by the OP of the Flue that we are `debating` on here.

You correctly stated that the Manufacturers Instructions should be adhered to and that would include dimensions which if followed correctly would result in a correctly installed Flue without any unnecessary / `prohibited` section of Flue pipe protruding past the wall surface.

BUT - If as You state Baxi [and Ideal] verbally specify [?] `No part of the white flue pipe must be showing / exposed` this should also be highlighted in the Flue Installation Instructions because with previously manufactured Boiler Flues made from Aluminium or an Aluminium Alloy Heating Engineers have often given themselves some `leeway` when measuring Flues and allowed for a slight protrusion of the Flue pipe past the wall surface.

There are thousands [perhaps hundreds of thousands ?] of previously installed Boiler Flues where the Flue pipe protrudes perhaps 25mm past the wall surface to the Terminal.

Because of that `Industry Habit` Baxi and Ideal should highlight their very important specification clearly in the Boiler Flue Installation Instructions - NOT just state `Install as per our Instructions & dimensions`.

I have to ask - How did You become aware of what you have stated about Baxi Boiler Flues / `No white Flue pipe must be seen / exposed` because of the `thin metal` outer skin of the Air Intake pipe ?

Chris

Training days and word of mouth.
Might be worth giving the technical lines a call for a direct answer yourself.

I have an ideal book in front of me, It doesn't specifically say no white but it states terminal must be fitted as shown.

Once your post count is up join the gas safe section

 

[CHRISX]

Training days and word of mouth.
Might be worth giving the technical lines a call for a direct answer yourself.

I have an ideal book in front of me, It doesn't specifically say no white but it states terminal must be fitted as shown.

Once your post count is up join the gas safe section

Hello again scott_d,

This is an example of the Manufacturers deciding to use a different material on the Flue pipe - obviously of inferior quality to the previous Aluminium / Aluminium Alloy and not actually specifying in writing that it must NOT be exposed to the elements.

Because of the `Industry Habit` that I previously described they should NOT just decide that if the exact dimensions given in the Flue Installation Instructions are followed then there would be NO exposed piece of the Flue pipe.

Heating Engineers who have gotten into the `Lifetime Habit` of `allowing a few millimetres` when cutting a Flue pipe need the Boiler Flue Installation Instructions for these different materials Flues to actually instruct them NOT to fit the Flue with any exposed Flue pipe.

Although I acknowledge that Boiler Manufacturers Training Courses / Training Days are usually very well run and very informative - from my experience Heating Engineers who have been in the trade for many years tend not regularly go for that Manufacturer specific training - it is not something that they would do every few years.

It is far more likely that Heating Engineers that are `New` to the trade will go onto a couple / a few Manufacturers Training Courses.

I have been in the Plumbing, Heating & Gas Industries since I began my Plumbing Apprenticeship in the mid 1960`s.

I have been a `Registered Gas Engineer` for 45 years - since 1973 with the CORGI voluntary Gas Register - transferring to the CORGI compulsory Gas Register in 1991 and transferring to the Gas Safe Register in 2009.

I have been on some Boiler Manufacturers Training Days earlier in my career:

Mainly Potterton / Baxi because of where their Training Centre is located in SE England.

The first being when Combi Boilers were first being introduced into the UK and later for their `New Products / Appliances familiarisation` days.

The last 2 Heating / Boiler / Energy Efficiency Training days being for the City & Guilds Energy Efficiency Exam for demonstrating knowledge on how to understand and comply with the Building Regulation `Part L`.

And my last `Boiler Training day was a `New Product / Appliance Familiarisation day` about the introduction of Potterton & Baxi Condensing Boilers.

I previously had Training & Assessment in `Essential Electrics` - `Electrical Installation for Mechanical Services` and I also attended a Honeywell Controls wiring training day.

I also took the CORGI `Defined Scope` Part P Electrical Course and Assessment in order to be deemed `Electrically Competent` to carry out Controls wiring for my Heating systems.

I have had the `Unvented Hot Water` ACOPS and later ACS since it was introduced renewing it every 5 years although when it was first issued as an ACOP Training & Assessment it had no expiry date.

I mention the above Training etc. just to let You know that I do agree with `Mid Career Training` / `Continued Professional Development` - however I like many Heating Engineers who have spent a lifetime in our Industries and are not far short of retirement will not be taking advantage of any more `Manufacturers Training Courses`.

I will not be joining the Gas Safe section of the Forum - I am guessing that I would probably end up constantly arguing with newly qualified `Gas Engineers` who had nowhere near the `Lifetime Experience` that I have with Gas Utilisation / Gas Safety.

That comment is not directed at You scott_d - I have no way of knowing how experienced you are in the `Heating / Gas Industries`.

Chris

 

[Scott_D]

Hello again scott_d,

This is an example of the Manufacturers deciding to use a different material on the Flue pipe - obviously of inferior quality to the previous Aluminium / Aluminium Alloy and not actually specifying in writing that it must NOT be exposed to the elements.

Because of the `Industry Habit` that I previously described they should NOT just decide that if the exact dimensions given in the Flue Installation Instructions are followed then there would be NO exposed piece of the Flue pipe.

Heating Engineers who have gotten into the `Lifetime Habit` of `allowing a few millimetres` when cutting a Flue pipe need the Boiler Flue Installation Instructions for these different materials Flues to actually instruct them NOT to fit the Flue with any exposed Flue pipe.

Although I acknowledge that Boiler Manufacturers Training Courses / Training Days are usually very well run and very informative - from my experience Heating Engineers who have been in the trade for many years tend not regularly go for that Manufacturer specific training - it is not something that they would do every few years.

It is far more likely that Heating Engineers that are `New` to the trade will go onto a couple / a few Manufacturers Training Courses.

I have been in the Plumbing, Heating & Gas Industries since I began my Plumbing Apprenticeship in the mid 1960`s.

I have been a `Registered Gas Engineer` for 45 years - since 1973 with the CORGI voluntary Gas Register - transferring to the CORGI compulsory Gas Register in 1991 and transferring to the Gas Safe Register in 2009.

I have been on some Boiler Manufacturers Training Days earlier in my career:

Mainly Potterton / Baxi because of where their Training Centre is located in SE England.

The first being when Combi Boilers were first being introduced into the UK and later for their `New Products / Appliances familiarisation` days.

The last 2 Heating / Boiler / Energy Efficiency Training days being for the City & Guilds Energy Efficiency Exam for demonstrating knowledge on how to understand and comply with the Building Regulation `Part L`.

And my last `Boiler Training day was a `New Product / Appliance Familiarisation day` about the introduction of Potterton & Baxi Condensing Boilers.

I previously had Training & Assessment in `Essential Electrics` - `Electrical Installation for Mechanical Services` and I also attended a Honeywell Controls wiring training day.

I also took the CORGI `Defined Scope` Part P Electrical Course and Assessment in order to be deemed `Electrically Competent` to carry out Controls wiring for my Heating systems.

I have had the `Unvented Hot Water` ACOPS and later ACS since it was introduced renewing it every 5 years although when it was first issued as an ACOP Training & Assessment it had no expiry date.

I mention the above Training etc. just to let You know that I do agree with `Mid Career Training` / `Continued Professional Development` - however I like many Heating Engineers who have spent a lifetime in our Industries and are not far short of retirement will not be taking advantage of any more `Manufacturers Training Courses`.

I will not be joining the Gas Safe section of the Forum - I am guessing that I would probably end up constantly arguing with newly qualified `Gas Engineers` who had nowhere near the `Lifetime Experience` that I have with Gas Utilisation / Gas Safety.

That comment is not directed at You scott_d - I have no way of knowing how experienced you are in the `Heating / Gas Industries`.

Chris

How do you keep date with the job?
Doing things because you are in the habit isn't good enough and may not be correct.
New boiler models, Smart controls, boiler plus, erp, new TBs, updated regulations etc etc
You have to go out if your way to keep up.

Maybe it's me that's wrong, maybe it's you, maybe you have learnt something about flues

You only need to look inside a modern boiler to see the quality of components used has gone down due to price.

 

[CHRISX]

How do you keep date with the job?
Doing things because you are in the habit isn't good enough and may not be correct.
New boiler models, Smart controls, boiler plus, erp, new TBs, updated regulations etc etc
You have to go out if your way to keep up.

Maybe it's me that's wrong, maybe it's you, maybe you have learnt something about flues

Hello scott_d,

I stated categorically in my previous messages that I would NOT install a Boiler Flue with part of the Flue pipe exposed.

It is not Me that has the `Industry Habit` that I described but I have seen so much of what I described - as have You if I am remembering your comments correctly about often seeing Boiler Flues incorrectly installed like the Flue in this thread - that it is VERY prevalent within our Industry.

I `keep up` with new developments because I have ALL of the Plumbing, Heating & Gas Trade publications either sent to me in paper Magazine form or links sent to the online versions via Email.

I then continue researching Technical Information about Products / Appliances / Controls etc. online or by downloading the Manufacturers Installation Instructions.

For every Boiler that I install I do actually read the Installation Instructions and follow them.

I have written some long messages on here relating to `Boiler Plus` which included advising Members about a new Baxi outdoor sensor which is fitted to the Flue Terminal and allows installers to fully adhere to those regulations without the cost being prohibitive.

I read every new Technical Bulletin from Gas Safe and I have a `Library` of them downloaded onto my Computer for easy reference.

Because of the `Trade Magazines` that I mentioned above I get advance notice of new Regulations or amendments relating to Gas Safety, Energy Efficiency, Water Regulations, Building Regulations and Electrical Regulations / IEE Specifications.

I then research online to find out the exact wording / implications of the new / or amended regulations.

I have looked at the various `Smart Controls` and have their Technical details and wiring diagrams downloaded as PDF`s on my Computer for easy reference.

From your comments above perhaps you think that the `only way to keep up` with the new Appliances, Controls, Regulations etc. in the Heating Industry is to keep going on Manufacturers training days ?

Personally I can absorb more information reading about it online that I could sitting in a Classroom listening to the `Manufacturers Product Expert` talk about new appliances etc. because I can go back and read paragraphs again if something causes me to query some related information.

Chris

 

[Harvest Fields]

What’s with all the Hello’s ?

 

[CHRISX]

What’s with all the Hello’s ?

Hello Harvest Fields,

I am a VERY polite person.

Chris

 

[Harvest Fields]

Hello Harvest Fields,

I am a VERY polite person.

Chris

No worries CHRIS, I would have put a X at the end of your name but it just feels wrong. (Sorry)

 

[Scott_D]

Hello scott_d,

I stated categorically in my previous messages that I would NOT install a Boiler Flue with part of the Flue pipe exposed.

It is not Me that has the `Industry Habit` that I described but I have seen so much of what I described - as have You if I am remembering your comments correctly about often seeing Boiler Flues incorrectly installed like the Flue in this thread - that it is VERY prevalent within our Industry.

I `keep up` with new developments because I have ALL of the Plumbing, Heating & Gas Trade publications either sent to me in paper Magazine form or links sent to the online versions via Email.

I then continue researching Technical Information about Products / Appliances / Controls etc. online or by downloading the Manufacturers Installation Instructions.

For every Boiler that I install I do actually read the Installation Instructions and follow them.

I have written some long messages on here relating to `Boiler Plus` which included advising Members about a new Baxi outdoor sensor which is fitted to the Flue Terminal and allows installers to fully adhere to those regulations without the cost being prohibitive.

I read every new Technical Bulletin from Gas Safe and I have a `Library` of them downloaded onto my Computer for easy reference.

Because of the `Trade Magazines` that I mentioned above I get advance notice of new Regulations or amendments relating to Gas Safety, Energy Efficiency, Water Regulations, Building Regulations and Electrical Regulations / IEE Specifications.

I then research online to find out the exact wording / implications of the new / or amended regulations.

I have looked at the various `Smart Controls` and have their Technical details and wiring diagrams downloaded as PDF`s on my Computer for easy reference.

From your comments above perhaps you think that the `only way to keep up` with the new Appliances, Controls, Regulations etc. in the Heating Industry is to keep going on Manufacturers training days ?

Personally I can absorb more information reading about it online that I could sitting in a Classroom listening to the `Manufacturers Product Expert` talk about new appliances etc. because I can go back and read paragraphs again if something causes me to query some related information.

Chris

Understood, a Line from a previous post made me think you felt that as you were close to retirement there was no point keeping up to date.
I think the Ifos is a very good idea but I have not fitted any.
I do prefer training days as you get to be hands on with the product, take it apart and re assemble.
It is very frustrating when you do a job to a high standard, then see others work. When I see an incorrect flue I always wonder what other corners were cut

 

[CHRISX]

Understood, a Line from a previous post made me think you felt that as you were close to retirement there was no point keeping up to date.
I think the Ifos is a very good idea but I have not fitted any.
I do prefer training days as you get to be hands on with the product, take it apart and re assemble.
It is very frustrating when you do a job to a high standard, then see others work. When I see an incorrect flue I always wonder what other corners were cut

Hello again scott_d,

Thanks for your reply and for the `Like` rating for my last message.

I have also always worked to the highest standard of workmanship and adherence to Manufacturers Installation Instructions plus all relevant regulations and I insist upon that from all Tradesmen who carry out work for me.

I am close to stopping installing Boilers and I am definitely too old / not physically capable of installing Heating systems / Floorboards up / underfloor pipework etc.

So I might not spend quite as much time researching new products / appliances as I have previously done but I will still want to know everything about any Boiler / Gas Appliance that my Company installs.

After literally `a Lifetime` in the Plumbing, Heating & Gas Industries I have the attitude where I want to definitely be `up to date` with all Gas Safety / Gas Utilisation knowledge.

And because I am a partner in a small Plumbing. Heating & Gas business I will want to be up to date with all relevant Information and Regulations related to Plumbing, Heating & Gas - plus the relevant Building Regulations in order to run the Business correctly even when I am completely `Off the Tools`.

Chris