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Discuss boiler size in the Boilers area at Plumbers Forums

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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]did the typical U value calculations to work out ideal boiler size, figure came out little over 27. So for unknown reasons looked at greenstar utility HE 32/50. Bearing in mind linked to solid fuel all going into heat store. Will obvoiusly heat the mains fed DHW, then pumped round upstairs rads then down to UFH downstairs. Im sure I read that if in the link up scenario like above the boiler output does not need to be as high?? is this correct ?? the customer wanted a wall mounted, but no make, manufacturer make a boiler above 28kw ?? im still at the drawing board stage here, and still need advice. When i sceth it out, it is fairly simple, couple of pumps / heat store / F&E etc. also the F&E tank,,,, should it be of the galv/ metal type seen as connected to solid fuel appliance, if so what size is recommended for say the torrent OV 350, roughly 11 rads, plus approx 180m2 of UFH
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any tanks fitted to the primary/gravity side from the solid fuel must be metal or fibreglass(rated at working temp off 110*c if memory serves), the float, and fittings must be metal and the overflow must be copper/metal.

what type of wall mounted boiler are you looking for?
 
Hi there awheating, he only wanted wall mounted toi aleviate some floor space in the utility, as for manufacturer or type, dont suppose it matters as long as reliable and good quality, a plumber told me today that Grant vortex 16/21 would probably be sufficient. Someone also suggested instead of the heat store to go for the Dunsley neutralizer then to an unvented cylinder ?? stil scratching my head over this
 
Thermal stores are normally an easy soultion when combined heat sources are used of which solid fuel is one you can eliminate the need for a heat leak radiator if the cylinder is sized to match the solid fuel stove, all dependant on space and loadings of course. the neutraliser is an option but alot more complicated to fit and wire up. I think you would be advised to seek manufactures advise about size and outputs. Make them earn your corn so to speak.
 
Worcester make a camray 25/32 or camray utility 25/32 which should suit.
 
Most plastic tanks sold now have been tested with a 500 hour boil test BS4213:2004. Boiling water will never exceed 100 degrees in 1 atmosphere of pressure, to go higher in temperature you have to pressurise it. Yes, a copper overflow pipe will be needed and a copper float (if your float is not certified as boil proof), the Solid Fuel Association nor Doc J does not state that you have to have a copper, galvanised or stainless steel F&E tank with solid fuel.

Bear in mind that for a 350litre thermal store and solid fuel, you will need 10% expansion vollume. So you system volume could be around 600 litres, so you will need at least a 70 litre F&E.

Sizing the boiler, if a new build 50W/m2, renovated older house, with good insulation then 75w/m2, if old and solid walls but double glazing and loft insulation then 100W/m2. If un renovated, high ceilings, single glaze, poor insulation and drafty, then 125 to 150w/m2. You unfloor heating maximum is usuallly around 100w/m2 max with tiles. To get more out, you will probably exceed the maximum legal floor temperature.

On top of the heating load, as a rule of thumb, I would add around 0.5kW/person. 4 people = 2kW, 6 people = 3kW hot water load. So I think you need to keep with a 32kW capable boiler. I would size with the wood boiler unless you are sure that this will suppliment the oil boiler. It probably won't be lit at 7am in the morning when the house needs to be heated up.

You will still need a suitably sized gravity fed heat leak radiator with the 350 Thermal store. It should be connected via 28mm pipe most of the way and configured with the flow at the high port of the rad and the return at the low siide, a normally open two port valve, so if the thermal store is full of heat or the power fails it cuts in the heat leak. Diagrams and wiring are in the instructions with the Torrent. Better still, you should install the wood boiler with a flue thermosat, a laddomat valve/pump with a 65 degree return load/layering valve bult in, this will only switch the pump on when you have lit the stove and prevent the condensing / rapid corosion of the wood boiler, which you will have a big problem with condensation when trying to heat a large capacity system and a 350 litre store.

The other way to have a small boiler is have a very large accumulator/thermal store. It would need to be around 2000-3000 litres to start to spread the load so you could use a 20kW boiler, so the smaller oil boiler could run for longer to spread the load, the tank would smooth over peaks and troughs in load. Basically a crazy idea for oil, where kW's are cheap!!
 
doc j may not state tank material but i think doc j mainly covers flues for solid fuel appliances. Hetas guidelines and manufactures instructions will state whats required. non plastic tanks is what is taught on the hetas training course.

you are not allowed to have a zone valve on the heat leak radiator as far as i understand. It must be top and bottom piped and only 300mm of 15mm allowed from valves before 22mm is needed in most cases.
 
thanks for the advise there . was just so unsure on the torrents capability to give a good heat temp to the C/H, especially as the flow tappings come from the bottom of the cylinder (the coolest draw off)
 
You are allowed a zone valve, but it has to be normally open as I mentioned, so if the power drops out it springs open. The laddomat 21 also has a bypass when switched off allows gravity circulation on power fail.

I have fitted several Gledhill thermal stores. One problem you get is the central heating return isn't baffled and mixes up the tank, destroying the stratification of the store and your hot water section, some thermal stores use a baffle plate running height of the store too avoid mixing. I always pump away from the store and set the pump speed low, ideally a return layering/blending valve would fix this on the Gledhill, only allowing 55 degree water back to the store on heating warm up.
 
hmm, so is there another store which is prefferable ? or is the torrent ok to run with . also if i were to run upstairs through the rads as planned and the downstairs with UFH, looking at some diagrams its just branched off the heating flow just after the pump, most manifolds for the UFH has a pump, wouldnt the 2 conflict or can i zone the UFH with a MV branched off before the pump ?
 
basic question, but its open vented so will require auto boiler pump, C/H pump etc, what pump would be adequate, from auto boiler to cylinder will be around 25ft one way,, C/H is at present 11 rads (doubles mainly)
 
Bigger is better with a F & E tank, I would go generally go a bit bigger if possible. Solid fuel expansion is usually around 10% in UK, although water only expands around 4%, but 10% is used as most tanks can only accomodate expansion of less than half there total volume.

The main oil boiler shunt pump for a 32kW will probably be 25-50. Boilers min flow rate, I think a 32kW will be 1.5m2 for 20degree delta T and 3.0m2 for a 10degree delta T, the pump head will be small if your are just circulating through a pair of 22mm pipes to the thermal store. The wood boiler, well this depends on output. An 11-30 laddomat with laddomat flue stat, this is OK up to 30kW wood boiler.

The main system pump has to drive 11 rads plus UFH manifolds. Your flow rate will be roughly 1.5 to 2m2/hour, the pump head will depend on the pipe size and length of run on your longest most restrictive index circuit. Have to start with 28mm F/R from the tank. I would look at a 15-60 circulator, or an Alpha2 15-60 if your budget allows. 15-60's are good to around 35kW, then you have to up in size to a 25-60 or similar. Also, fit an auto bypass on here.
 
Bigger is better with a F & E tank, I would go generally go a bit bigger if possible. Solid fuel expansion is usually around 10% in UK, although water only expands around 4%, but 10% is used as most tanks can only accomodate expansion of less than half there total volume.

The main oil boiler shunt pump for a 32kW will probably be 25-50. Boilers min flow rate, I think a 32kW will be 1.5m2 for 20degree delta T and 3.0m2 for a 10degree delta T, the pump head will be small if your are just circulating through a pair of 22mm pipes to the thermal store. The wood boiler, well this depends on output. An 11-30 laddomat with laddomat flue stat, this is OK up to 30kW wood boiler.

The main system pump has to drive 11 rads plus UFH manifolds. Your flow rate will be roughly 1.5 to 2m2/hour, the pump head will depend on the pipe size and length of run on your longest most restrictive index circuit. Have to start with 28mm F/R from the tank. I would look at a 15-60 circulator, or an Alpha2 15-60 if your budget allows. 15-60's are good to around 35kW, then you have to up in size to a 25-60 or similar. Also, fit an auto bypass on here.

Hi, great info thanks, budget isnt really an issue at the moment, he wants a good system that works well and is relying on me giving him the advice and recommending whats best, hence my bombardment of questions.

The general layout of the upstairs heating is a little complex as the floor area is quite large and the cylinder is in a central location, so i can either make a T shaped layout and send a circuit down each side of the house or simply go direct to the first rad, then just connect them all up in a large circle type circuit, (which more expensive in parts and time but would be more efficient i think) ?

The first stage of the project means the floor dimesions, are 12 m x 21m Total length. obviously then piped downstairs to same size for UFH.

As for the solid fuel, not contradicting but every manual and person has said to fit not restrictive valves / pumps on the flow or return and rely on the gravity circulation, of which there was an existing system in place before to a standard copper cylinder of which pipework was still in situ, NO pumps NO valves on it, and i presume it worked ? Although i will be replacing the old pipework and i can probably angle the pipework more in the floor space to be even better
 
Not in the vent pipe, but you are allowed to divert the flow between a cylinder and a heat leak leak radiator. And of course you can fit a laddomat 11-30 it has a bypass on power fail. A 2 port normally open is designed for use with solid fuel as is a laddomat pump.
 
Not in the vent pipe, but you are allowed to divert the flow between a cylinder and a heat leak leak radiator. And of course you can fit a laddomat 11-30 it has a bypass on power fail. A 2 port normally open is designed for use with solid fuel as is a laddomat pump.

So this works by sensing the temp (once lit set to say 45Degrees) on the flow stat, in turn switching on the laddomat pumping the mixed water back to burner, and also in turn closing the norm open mV to the heat leak rad ???

Then in off or power fail, pump OFF with a safe bypass and norm open MV is OPEN to allow grav circ through the heat leak rad
 
Yep, that's pretty much it. The diagrams are in the Gledhill Multifuel manual. You see the vent pipe and the valves, it does not show the laddomat pump/return blender. If you don't fit a flue stat, then the pump can just run on, pipe stats are not so good as it will pull the heat back from the store and keep the pipes hot. I find it better to use a flue stat, the system knows when the stove has warmed up and it time to start the pump.

If the wood boiler is more than a few KW as it may kettle without a pump and our course it would condense terribly when working against a cold 600 to 700 litre system unless return blending is also not in place.

The configuration will depend on if you want to heat the hot water only or you want to heat the whole house with the wood boiler.
 
Well, you'll need to use the 3 pump system as we have been discussing. Laddomat 11-30 with 65 degree return blending, at least a 25-50 on the oil and maybe a 15-60 or an Alpha2 15-60 on the main central heating circuit, all sharing the same water with an open vent and big'ish solid fuel F&E tank. If you budget can stretch to it, I would use a ESBE LTC valve to blend the heating return back to the store at 55 degrees less chance of mixing up the store. Of course, don't try to use the coil in the Multifuel for the oil boiler if is only a hot water heating coil, not big enough to power the central heating. I know one installer that made this mistake with a sealed system boiler!!

Also, valve all inputs and outputs to the store, apart from the vent obviously. Once filled if would be a costly and time consuming complete drain down if you just nee dto change a radiator!!

I have to get back to work now, I am working on a 100kW LPG with a 60kW wood gasification boiler design, 2 x 2000 ltr accumulator tanks, pressurisation unit, low loss header and various pumps and a weather compensated electric blender at the tank output. This design has a 700 ltr pressure vessel, as yes a laddomat with 70 degree return and flue stat. We run these log gasifiers up to 90 degree flow and 80 return, so 4000litres of pressurised very hot water stored. The boilers are closed vent with 2 bar pressure relief valves and a cold water cooling coil set to 97 degrees. I'll need around 50 litres of inhibitor for that one, so plenty of valves to avoid a complete draindown at £500 a go!!
 
well thanks for all the useful info, you get back to work, obviously not a system in a 2 bed semi then that your working on ! thanks again
 
Funny, I have three of those in a terrrace to quote complete plumbing and heating today as well. Simple gas combi boilers, personally I would have put in air source heat pumps or a district heating system instead.

I don't know why your customer just doesn't have a wood pellet boiler instead and scrap the oil idea all together, wood stoves with back boilers are old dinosaur technology and not very efficient or particularly easy to use. Automatic wood pellets stove boilers are just so much easier, cleaner and far more efficient and they can be run sealed and pressurised just like an oil boiler.
 
i agree, but im only working on the customers basic spec. As i dont deal with solid fuel i cant advise him of the options hence why someone else is fitting the burner. i dont know what advise this other person has given, apart from when i install the therm store to run the flow / return pipes to the location where the fire will be installed
 
re, pump 25 - 50 is this a commercial pump or soething as cant locate it in my grundfos book ? also heat leak rad, say he fitted a 30kw wood burner, its says i need a rad of at least 20% of that, 6kw, ?? what rad is that powerfull ???
 
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