Cast iron soil pipe jointing method

[CHRISX]

Chris you can't exactly make a horizontal joint vertical when it's in situe just to pour the lead can you. I think they where just showing you the how to on a horizontal joint.

Hello sammathias,

Thanks for your message - You could be right, but did You hear them saying anything about that on the video ?

IF they were trying to show how to pour a joint correctly in either plane they definitely did NOT achieve it !

There was a gap where the pour rope formed a `V` for pouring the lead into the joint and there was a corresponding big gap inside the collar at that point where the lead had NOT filled the collar.

In a successful pour one would have a FULL collar and a `V` shaped piece of lead in that rope pouring gap which would be sticking out above the pipe collar and would be chopped off during the Caulking process.

The bottom section of the pouring rope should have been more firmly pushed into the joint - when a Plumber pours a lead joint on Cast Iron pipework the pouring rope should be tapped down slightly into the pipe collar using something like a Hammer or Caulking Iron - from memory they were using their fingers to push the rope down - and of course the joint should have had enough Lead poured into it to FILL it.

Because of what I described above I would state that they did not pour the joint correctly whether it was supposed to be a vertical joint or a joint connecting to a Branch.

Chris

 

[Deleted member 96286]

Evening all, I’ve been asked to replace a cast iron stack on a listed building. The customer has ordered the required materials, I’ve just got to install it. What’s the modern day method to seal the joints?

Thanks

I still do a lot of cast work. The traditional method is to caulk the joint all the way to the top with rope yarn then pour molten lead into the joint. A far easier and equally effective method is to caulk the joint all the way to the top using cement rope called PC4AF. You soak this rope in water and wrap it around the pipe and caulk it tightly into the joint with a caulking tool until it reaches the top of the joint, then cut off the excess. It sets rock hard when it dries. You can make a caulking tool by cutting 8 inches of 22mm copper, then flattening the bottom 4 inches of the copper and keep the top bit round to use as a handle.
Trainees nowadays miss out as they don't get shown cast work, lead work and the traditional methods at college. There are still thousands of pre Victorian buildings where these skills are a necessity.

 

[DAVE01]

My Method:-
Centralise the pipe in the joint. (use small wooden wedges to help if you like but take them out after the Gaskin is in place).
Put Gaskin in (Hemp/Tarred Hemp, twisted, dry).
Use a Yarning tool or something similar to drive it down to the base tightly. Make sure it does not pass into the pipe.
That stops the molten Lead from running into the pipe but it is also the most important part of the joint. In theory, the joint should not leak after the Gaskin is in place and tight.

Next comes the molten Lead.

I use an old ladle like the one above. It is cast iron. You will need something like it or something to withstand the heat. Lead melts at 621 F (328 C). That's damn hot. Your molten lead will be hotter as you need to be able to pour and fill the joint before it sets again. There is nothing worse than it setting half way through a pour. Heat travels, especially from something so hot, so you need to think of the handle conducting heat too. You don't want your plastic handled pan full of molten lead suddenly deciding it has had enough. I always get the Lead to a kind of pale Golden looking stage, that way I know it's hot enough. That's my rule of thumb though, I don't know what anyone else does.

Be careful to make sure the joint material at the base is dry (no water/moisture), molten metal and water don't get on well!
Wear face/eye protection. If you pour molten metal onto water, the water will instantly turn to steam (physics) and as a rule of thumb one cubic inch of water = 1 cubic foot of steam (very rough but not far out for the purpose of explanations like this), That will throw the lead out as a molten lead spray/spit that tends to stick to skin due to it having lost some heat on the way to you. It will still be well into the hundreds of degrees when it lands. Sorry to be graphic but if you've not done this before there are things you need to consider and safety is the most important. Do a risk assessment. No people beneath you, nothing to trip over, no mithering customers, you need to concentrate.

Yours will be easier than in that video as the joints will be mostly vertical. You only really need to wrap branches or offsets on the horizontal.
Pour in one confident smooth run until full.

Once the lead is set, caulk that using a Caulking tool. Just to tighten it up and drive it down a bit below the surface. Not too much as you do not want to crack the cast.

Once cool, mix putty and paint (messy but sticky and superb stuff), fill the top of the joint to a nice angle and strike it off smooth. Then once you've finished, give it a run round with a paint brush (with paint on) it will still be soft so go easy so as not to make marks in it.

Move on up!

I would advise you get an old timer to spend the day with you first time. Even if they only come in the role of an adviser. If you found one with a pan and ladle you'd be laughing.

They appeared to use glass rope in that video. I'm not sure how that would behave as I have never used it. I know it will stand high temperatures but I don't know how high.

Hope that helps. Sorry for war and peace!

OOPS There is hope for us old timers after all. have used cast iron on the Hilton Hotel in Ireland but with time savers only And as for as I Know Monument Tools have Ladel not to sure about Caulking Tools its like Chisel Flat on one side or more or less shaped like the letter Z then you have the Pot for melting the Lead you ladel the lead out of Pot to fill joint and you need The plumbers robe that clips around joint And as was said do not caulk any joint in bad weather like rain lead will splash get a nasty burn or worse still lose a eye

 

[Waluigi]

I’ve done Timesaver (Saint Gobbain) heritage before. It works really well. The finish is every bit as good as a caulked Joint

One thing you must consider though and this is very important- the lubrication required for the push fit joints must be temporary. I think it’s called P-60 or something. If you use a standard lubricant the fitting will pop out as soon as it’s pushed in. It’s a kind of milk that gets porured onto the pipe. This is going back ten years.

 

[CHRISX]

I still do a lot of cast work. The traditional method is to caulk the joint all the way to the top with rope yarn then pour molten lead into the joint. A far easier and equally effective method is to caulk the joint all the way to the top using cement rope called PC4AF. You soak this rope in water and wrap it around the pipe and caulk it tightly into the joint with a caulking tool until it reaches the top of the joint, then cut off the excess. It sets rock hard when it dries. You can make a caulking tool by cutting 8 inches of 22mm copper, then flattening the bottom 4 inches of the copper and keep the top bit round to use as a handle.
Trainees nowadays miss out as they don't get shown cast work, lead work and the traditional methods at college. There are still thousands of pre Victorian buildings where these skills are a necessity.

Hello Cailean,

I have often used `PC4` Cold Caulking Compound - not on full Stacks but where I just had a couple of joints - for example where I was installing a 6ft length of Cast Iron pipe and an Access pipe at the bottom of a Plastic Soil or Rainwater Stack.

This would have been in either narrow access paths between Buildings or where a narrow access road for vehicles - some which had no pavement adjacent the bottom of the Stack - the Cast Iron section being more robust than Plastic.

Rather than bring the `Full Lead Melting & Pouring Kit` for just 2 joints I would use `PC4` at the connections to the Access pipe and the Cast to Plastic Cast Iron Adapter.

When I first used it many Years ago [40+] I wonder if it was `Asbestos Free` then ?

You are right about the Plumbing `Traditional Skills` not being taught at Colleges and the fact that there are plenty of Buildings where Cast Iron Stacks and Roofing Leadwork etc. still exist and need Plumbers capable of working skilfully on them.

I remember many years ago when `Nuralite` was first brought to market as a cheaper alternative to Lead for Flat Roofing, Flashings, Capping Brickwork, Structural Concrete etc.

It was stated that `Any Plumber could fit the product using their existing Leadwork skills and Tools`.

While the Roofing sheet was a flexible membrane type of material the `Board` was as the word suggests - `as stiff as a board` and not at all easy to work with regarding `Folding & Creasing` plus sticking it down in the case of Cappings and Flashings - FAR from `just as easy as working with Lead` !

I only worked with it on one Site where I was Capping parapet walls and installing Flashings - using Nuralite for the Capping on that Site was ridiculous as Capping stones would have been far more effective for `Weathering` and much better looking.

I hated working with it as the Black `Tar like` Adhesive was almost impossible to get off your hands and clothes and there were no `Surgical` / Latex gloves readily available to buy in those days - because of precise bending of the Nuralite sheet material `Rigger gloves` or similar could not be worn regarding your hands dexterity.

The Adhesive really did damage your hands because it got well `ground in` as did the attempts to clean it off using Diesel !

`The Good Old Days` ?

EDIT: I just looked for `Nuralite UK` online and found that the Company had ceased trading in 1998 - that was probably about 18 years after I had used it as described above.

Having used it I would not have been surprised to find that the Nuralite Board did not catch on in the UK to `replace Lead for Flashings etc.` - but I am surprised to find that Nuralite products are very well used in the New Zealand Construction / Roofing Industry and probably Australia.

Chris

 

[Deleted member 96286]

Hello Cailean,

I have often used `PC4` Cold Caulking Compound - not on full Stacks but where I just had a couple of joints - for example where I was installing a 6ft length of Cast Iron pipe and an Access pipe at the bottom of a Plastic Soil or Rainwater Stack.

This would have been in either narrow access paths between Buildings or where a narrow access road for vehicles - some which had no pavement adjacent the bottom of the Stack - the Cast Iron section being more robust than Plastic.

Rather than bring the `Full Lead Melting & Pouring Kit` for just 2 joints I would use `PC4` at the connections to the Access pipe and the Cast to Plastic Cast Iron Adapter.

When I first used it many Years ago [40+] I wonder if it was `Asbestos Free` then ?

You are right about the Plumbing `Traditional Skills` not being taught at Colleges and the fact that there are plenty of Buildings where Cast Iron Stacks and Roofing Leadwork etc. still exist and need Plumbers capable of working skilfully on them.

I remember many years ago when `Nuralite` was first brought to market as a cheaper alternative to Lead for Flat Roofing, Flashings, Capping Brickwork, Structural Concrete etc.

It was stated that `Any Plumber could fit the product using their existing Leadwork skills and Tools`.

While the Roofing sheet was a flexible membrane type of material the `Board` was as the word suggests - `as stiff as a board` and not at all easy to work with regarding `Folding & Creasing` plus sticking it down in the case of Cappings and Flashings - FAR from `just as easy as working with Lead` !

I only worked with it on one Site where I was Capping parapet walls and installing Flashings - using Nuralite for the Capping on that Site was ridiculous as Capping stones would have been far more effective for `Weathering` and much better looking.

I hated working with it as the Black `Tar like` Adhesive was almost impossible to get off your hands and clothes and there were no `Surgical` / Latex gloves readily available to buy in those days - because of precise bending of the Nuralite sheet material `Rigger gloves` or similar could not be worn regarding your hands dexterity.

The Adhesive really did damage your hands because it got well `ground in` as did the attempts to clean it off using Diesel !

`The Good Old Days` ?

EDIT: I just looked for `Nuralite UK` online and found that the Company had ceased trading in 1998 - that was probably about 18 years after I had used it as described above.

Having used it I would not have been surprised to find that the Nuralite Board did not catch on in the UK to `replace Lead for Flashings etc.` - but I am surprised to find that Nuralite products are very well used in the New Zealand Construction / Roofing Industry and probably Australia.

Chris

Hi Chris, I remember Nuralite well and the big tin of Number 10 tar like adhesive that got everywhere. I hated working with it and half of Glasgow had it installed in the 80's during the roof renovations. I remember even going out to the pub at night with my hands still jet black, because I couldn't get the stuff off and people giving me funny looks as though I didn't wash myself! Nuralite itself was a crap product. I remember splitting the edges of it to make feathered joints, and burning the tips of my fingers. However I still do lead work and lead burning. Our cities here in Scotland still have many Victorian era buildings and also grade A listed buildings, so everything has to go back the same.

The original PC4 was pure asbestos cement rope. When you opened the tin, all the asbestos dust flew up in your face and no one thought anything about it. All of a sudden, one year it became PC4AF, with "AF" meaning asbestos free. A similar lack of safety was the norm when we worked on old boilers back then, as they were lined with white asbestos.

As to the OP, don't use molten lead mate, unless it's strictly specified. This is something that is bloody dangerous to work with, even breathing in the fumes is hazardous and something that you need a bit of training to get right. Use PC4AF and follow the instructions on the tin. It's safe as houses and gives a superb joint.

 

[Deleted member 96286]

3.125KG PC4AF Cold Caulking Compound

 

[Sharp Point]

Guess what I’m doing today?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Have fun

 

[Sharp Point]

Have fun

It’s not! Sat on some scaffolding and this wind is making my frozen to the core AND I’ve come down with a stinker of a cold

 

[rpm]

Guess what I’m doing today?

View attachment 35058

Hanging yourself?

 

[Sharp Point]

Hanging yourself?

Yes, the thought of maybe another referendum and we vote again to stay....

 

[Ric2013]

Guess what I’m doing today?

View attachment 35058

Well jealous!

 

[Sharp Point]

I bottled out of using lead and gone for the ct1 sealant way of capping off. I would’ve liked to of poured a joint, but the expense of sourcing the equipment and knowing I’ll never probably do one again, putme off.
I followed the method from a Tuscan brochure.

 

[Ric2013]

To be honest, if the BCO won't accept a puttied and painted seal as an acceptable joint in the event that the lead is not 100% airtight, I think that's unreasonable.

As the lead or cord will keep the joint permanently positioned so the putty is less likely to fall out, and the putty or sealant will hold well for at least as long as a proprietary rubber seal if applied properly. Ever tried dismantling a cast iron rainwater pipe that's held together by putty? I have, and it ain't easy!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Chicken

Please say you used black ct1 ?

 

[Chalked]

To lead them. All you need is scrap lead, a metal tin ( I use a decorators meatball paint tin) melt it and pour in. Holds the joint so tight. Your method will be ok,but when doing an offset at the top you will have nothing to hold it.

 

[Sharp Point]

Chicken

Please say you used black ct1 ?

Nope, actually grey. I asked the customer to get me black, but the merchants were running low, So he came back with 1 black and 3 grey, the first three joints will be black and the rest grey.
Don’t ask... he’s so impatient

 

[Sharp Point]

To lead them. All you need is scrap lead, a metal tin ( I use a decorators meatball paint tin) melt it and pour in. Holds the joint so tight. Your method will be ok,but when doing an offset at the top you will have nothing to hold it.

I haven’t considered that part yet lol, guess I best start getting some stuff together then