Changing the MCS

[dontknowitall]

had assessment today and assessor was very helpful, spoke about qms and he agreed the informal reviews etc for small busineess are a joke and expects it to change in years to come but dont expect anything quick,

This doesn't surprise me. So many talk the talk these days but not many walk the walk. I sometimes wonder if any of these regulation bodies actually know what work is involved when it comes to the nitty gritty of installing major items (e.g. boilers, consumer units, hot water cylinders, etc). It's so easy to sit behind a desk and dictate how a job should be done but quite a different matter when you're at the coal face.

The trouble with today's attitude of everyone covering their own backs is that no one's allowed to bend the rules a little because they fear the one stoopid numpty will not think properly and cause a serious problem. The other 999 workers can make a sensible assessment but they're not allowed to. In the meantime we seem to have to accept that we cannot be trusted.

I have also found that if you ask a question no one wants to know just in case they get the answer wrong which means they can be sued. So once again, the worker is left to carry the can.

Must jump off my horse before I get into trouble ...

 

[MickW]

So, the RHPP has been announced and the grant is available from Aug 1st to March next year. Plenty of time for big firms to pretty much charge what they want, because there are next to no small businesses accredited to do the work at a more reasonable price.

 

[MickW]

had assessment today and assessor was very helpful, spoke about qms and he agreed the informal reviews etc for small busineess are a joke and expects it to change in years to come but dont expect anything quick,

I can't guarantee it, Eaton, but I am pretty much working full time now on the campaign to make MCS simpler for small businesses and I want it quick!

I had a meeting on Tuesday with Gideon Richards, the Chairman of the MCS steering group, and Chris Yates, the man leading the current MCS review.

Gideon Richards dismissed, out of hand, the possibility of exemption from the QMS part of MCS for small business, stating that it is impossible because the scheme has to comply with European Standard BS EN 45011. To cut a long story short, I told him that I didn't believe that and I have subsequently asked him to show me where any Standard insists that a one man band has to have a Quality Management System. He hasn't come back to me yet.

In addition to continuing with that campaign, I am going to work with Chris Yates on the review with the aim of getting a vastly simplified version of QMS for small business and getting it quickly (a few months, not years).

Small business has already dipped out on the business generated by the RHPP grant announced today, because if they are not MCS accredited now, they will not have time to become accredited and fit anything before March, which is the cut off for installations.

And to DontKnowitAll - I walk the walk and the powers that be know I don't give up easily. I will get there, one way or another!

 

[CES]

I know I shouldn't get personal, But Id love to hoof that Gideon chap just once in the danglies, just for being an arrogant sod.
Instead of sitting on his chorus on a steering committee lording it, he should be doing something to help people achieve the goal of MCS accreditation instead of dismissing any ideas to help the little guys...

 

[unguided1]

I see that MickW and the campaign are mentioned in this months Gas Safe magazine, just Like to say well done for all the work you are doing on this campaign Mick and many thanks

 

[MickW]

Thank you.

 

[unguided1]

BG should they be banned from the MCS http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/gas-safety-register-forum/23622-2-5-million-pound-fine.html

 

[MickW]

BG should they be banned from the MCS http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/gas-safety-register-forum/23622-2-5-million-pound-fine.html

It does make a farce of what some people are saying about maintaining standards - All these nasty one off installers not being able to do the job properly or looking after their customers well... Like BG and Anglia FFS!

 

[TVR Steve]

My company (which is small) is booked on the course to be MCS registered. I have read many comments on here but by no means 19 pages of them.
I still dont understand what the problem is (apart from cost - same as GSR). Why have gas engineers got a problem with keeping records?
We all go on about the cowboys taking our business and cheapening the trade, now with renewables tradesmen have to show they give a toss about the customer rather than just saying they do.
If tradesmen/one man bands are so good at looking after the customer then why are they so reluctant to have procedures in place to prove we are doing what we say we are?
To me it is the equivalent of Corgi/GSR actually doing what they say and making it difficult for cowboys.
I do agree that the cost is outrageous, but then so is the potential workload for tradesmen who will take on the big companies and do a good job.

 

[CES]

The thing with the MCS is that it is perceived to be another "add on", yet another fee we have to pay in order to work. MCS might seem reasonable but when you look at the added costs which are in addition to GSR the system is fundamentally flawed and favours the big companies as "one fee fits all sizes".
Another argument is that we have been running businesses before MCS and provided good service so why should the introduction of a new scheme suddenly mean that without a QMS we don't provide good service?
It is now becoming obvious that even the big companies are not practicing what they preach when it comes to MCS. A lot of them are ignoring the REA scheme with regards sales tactics, incorrectly advising the returns of new technologies. Google the "which" report on solar stuff. So if this MCS is all that it is supposed to be then how come it doesn't stop companies who are registered being cowboys? - Truth in the matter is that it doesn't. Just because you are registered doesn't mean you cant be a cowboy and rip people off, by the same token, just because you aren't registered doesn't mean you will rip people off.

 

[boblydon]

I agree with What TVR Steve say's, likewise i have read a a lot of the thread but not every single post.

Yes the cost is outrageous but that's not that bad of a thing, the potential earnings will far out wiegh this cost, one thing it will do is keep these potential earning's within the small group of like minded individuals/companies who are willing to invest their hard earned profits into there future.

Lets face it very few customers would go to the huge expence of having any type of renewables installed with out recieving one of the various grants, feed in tarriffs etc, to get these the installer has to be registered, no Tom Dick or Harry can now jump on this potential cash cow with out training/registation.

If our gas industry had a similar type of closed shop registration, where by for example the customer could cliam the VAT back, or you could not buy gas aplliances with out registration then this may help our trade and give us more work.

My personal opinion is that MCS is good, and Corgi/Gassafe is a pile of ****e that does nothing to help us.

Bob

 

[CES]

The trouble is, every tom dick and harry can and is jumping on the bandwagon as the big companies are subcontracting work out to people who, although maybe trained, do not have to go to the expense of being MCS registered. This kind of proves the point that MCS in its current form is not fit for purpose. We now have Double glazing firms installing Solar panels, how can they prove competence? Big company salesmen ignoring the REAL scheme code of conduct when providing quotes,how do they get away with ignoring written codes of conduct? and then you have us, the small guys who have to dish out the exact same cost as the big firms and then wait for a renewable job to come along before we can even be considered for registration. I agree there has to be rules but rules must be followed by everybody, not just for the small guys.
I might be sounding a bit bitter, but Im in the process of registration as I think the only future for my business is renewable technologies but I see more and more leglislation being battered into us by so called experts, which prevent my business growing and yet the cowboys who are subbied to bigger outfits get away with it? Wheres the logic in following the rules?

By the way, Im not implying people who are subbied to bigger outfits are cowboys!

 

[boblydon]

I never realised that firms could sub this work out and still claim the tarriffs, i was under the impression that it was the same sort of set up we have in our gas registration....you had to be qualified ie mcs acredited/approved/registered.

Bob

 

[ecowarm]

There are ways round it i.e. its commissioned by the mcs company

 

[CES]

I'm getting registered with NAPIT for Solar PV. I'm using a mate of mine who's a Qualified Electrician who has been on the 4 day NICEIC Solar PV course. I queried NAPIT if I need any Solar qualification, they said no, as long as you use a suitably trained subcontractor. "Does he/she need to be MCS registered?" I asked, "No".
As far as Im concerned its a major loophole that is attracting the "fly by nights" so Im jumping on it too before all the work has gone! Its the only way I can think of fighting back and hopefully getting some work out of too. After all, the RHI has been nothing short of idiotic round my way, everyones on mains gas and what good's £300 for a solar thermal install?

 

[unguided1]

The MCS is not fit for purpose and is failling the customers it is designed to protect miserably, the fact is that if you can afford to pay for registration and you have a qms, then fine your in, I am constantly going round condeming installations by MCS accredited installers for quite basic mistakes, a prime example is last week the whole installation was ok apart from the fact that the underfloor heating manifolds were piped the wrong way round, flow on to return bar and return onto flow bar, this on both manifolds.

 

[MickW]

As I said on another thread, I'm sorry, that I have not been keeping you up to date with the campaign to make MCS more accessible for small business. This is partly because I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall dealing with the chair of the MCS steering group.

I am still trying to do what I can and the last contact I had with Gideon Richards (Chairman of the steering group) was to ask for 2 or 3 of the campaigners to be allowed to address the MCS Management Panel. They are all aware of the email exchanges between Mr Richards & I, but are all carefully making no comment.

Needless to say, my request has been ignored for the last 6 weeks, so I will be repeating my request in the next day or so - don't hold your breath!!!

 

[fuzzy]

from what i gather there will be little movement from the current position

 

[radswilldo]

I would like tell MickW that many of us appreciate your endeavors. Regarding MCS, i have been speaking with the tech at my plumbing federation for around a year now. From what I understand, MCS registry will not be the only game in town, it may even fall by the way side, via competent person schemes. Alterations and complete re-thinks are happening. Come March/April next year all may be very much different.

 

[fuzzy]

MCS is required for the tariffs, if your not applying for any said incentive does the installer need to be mcs? surely competence is all thats required, therefore if the tariffs alter or cease to be then so wil the mcs?