i would track back along the pipes to see where the hot water stops my bet is a pair of ballofixes left under floor, half off,with some build up of dirt in them but that wouldnt explain the link pipe working ????
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cold rad
- Thread starter PaulRB
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Halesowen1
Gas Engineer
If you are having problem with possible flow to rad, the last thing you want to do is decrese it even more with iso vlaves.
Unless the pipe work is going up over something then back down (making an air trap in high point) then I doubt its air.
Still say its a blockage, either on pipework or rad/valves.
Unless the pipe work is going up over something then back down (making an air trap in high point) then I doubt its air.
Still say its a blockage, either on pipework or rad/valves.
F
fuzzy
connect the flow closer to the boiler, leave the return, therefore create a reverse return system
P
PaulRB
Ok guys.
The pipe to the rad does go over a wall and is horizontal for about 2 metres. I can't see the other side of the wall but I think it probably dips down so, yes, it could be an air-lock.
It doesn't "feel" like air though because when I drain from the return pipe, there is no spluttering and no air trapped in the rad.
I will still put in an automatic air vent, just in case.
I was going to put in full-bore iso valves so the flow would not be decreased.
If it was a blockage, I don't understand how the hot water is able to get thru if I drain some water from the return pipe. Surely a blockage would stop all flow?
It does seem to be a circulation problem because draining water from the return pipe encourages the water in the flow pipe and the rad will get hot and work for 2/3 days, until the water cools.( or until air builds up in the pipe ).
I just thought putting a small pump in the return pipe might be enough to keep the system working.
Thanks
The pipe to the rad does go over a wall and is horizontal for about 2 metres. I can't see the other side of the wall but I think it probably dips down so, yes, it could be an air-lock.
It doesn't "feel" like air though because when I drain from the return pipe, there is no spluttering and no air trapped in the rad.
I will still put in an automatic air vent, just in case.
I was going to put in full-bore iso valves so the flow would not be decreased.
If it was a blockage, I don't understand how the hot water is able to get thru if I drain some water from the return pipe. Surely a blockage would stop all flow?
It does seem to be a circulation problem because draining water from the return pipe encourages the water in the flow pipe and the rad will get hot and work for 2/3 days, until the water cools.( or until air builds up in the pipe ).
I just thought putting a small pump in the return pipe might be enough to keep the system working.
Thanks
F
fuzzy
i wouldnt bother with a pump, your far better solving the problem. you say you drag water through the return, have you also tried it with the flow?
blockage, if the blockage is in the flow of course you can get water out of the return as theres no blockage there
can you re connect the flow or return closer the boiler (not both) reverse return system
J
jase158
Can I just clarify what has been said,
1. radiator not working
2. heat is passing through when radiator disconnected and pipe placed instead
3. replace radiator and stops working
4. drain down from one side and radiator is working fine for a couple days then stops.
5. pipe work comes from attic across house and down.
my theory would be pipework, where is it coming from? does it connect to 22mm or 15mm pipe, is the pipework to radiator 15mm, 10mm or 8mm?
just seems like there isnt enough pressure to push water all the way through, when radiator is disconnected it is pushing it far enough, but when connected there isnt enough pressure to push it along. either that or partial blockage at joint that is blocking completely when heating is cold and when you are pushing heat through it is unblocking slightly.
the way I would go would be to find where radiator connects to rest of system and replace. or connect radiator pipework to somewhere closer.
water finds easiest route, so possibly passing straight past join and not going to your radiator.
1. radiator not working
2. heat is passing through when radiator disconnected and pipe placed instead
3. replace radiator and stops working
4. drain down from one side and radiator is working fine for a couple days then stops.
5. pipe work comes from attic across house and down.
my theory would be pipework, where is it coming from? does it connect to 22mm or 15mm pipe, is the pipework to radiator 15mm, 10mm or 8mm?
just seems like there isnt enough pressure to push water all the way through, when radiator is disconnected it is pushing it far enough, but when connected there isnt enough pressure to push it along. either that or partial blockage at joint that is blocking completely when heating is cold and when you are pushing heat through it is unblocking slightly.
the way I would go would be to find where radiator connects to rest of system and replace. or connect radiator pipework to somewhere closer.
water finds easiest route, so possibly passing straight past join and not going to your radiator.
N
nick/matt1
try replacing the trv. also ensure you hsve no restrictions on the return pipework, or partial blockage in the feed from the top up cistern, which can cause flow restriction
P
PaulRB
i wouldnt bother with a pump, your far better solving the problem. you say you drag water through the return, have you also tried it with the flow?
blockage, if the blockage is in the flow of course you can get water out of the return as theres no blockage there
can you re connect the flow or return closer the boiler (not both) reverse return system
I can't drain water from the flow pipe because the drain valve is in the return pipe.
If there is a blockage how can the hot water get thru the flow pipe when I drain from the return pipe?
When I do this, the rad works ok for 2/3 days!
Thanks
F
fuzzy
the water may not be coming from the flow pipe is my point, it CAN come from the return pipe
and you havnt answered my question, can you tee either the flow or return closer the boiler?
and you havnt answered my question, can you tee either the flow or return closer the boiler?
P
PaulRB
I think you're right. The problem is in the system before the rad but I can't get at the pipework there.
I just find it strange that I can get it working for 2/3 days before it packs up again.
As long as the water in the pipes is hot, the circulation seems to be ok.
The problem occurs as the water cools down.
I thought putting a small drill-driven pump in the return pipework might give the system the boost it needs to keep working.
I would only need to activate the pump for seconds, until the hot water comes thru again.
Thanks.
I just find it strange that I can get it working for 2/3 days before it packs up again.
As long as the water in the pipes is hot, the circulation seems to be ok.
The problem occurs as the water cools down.
I thought putting a small drill-driven pump in the return pipework might give the system the boost it needs to keep working.
I would only need to activate the pump for seconds, until the hot water comes thru again.
Thanks.
P
PaulRB
The hot water is definitely coming from the flow pipe because I can feel it coming down the pipe as I drain cold water from the return. It then circulates ok for as long as the heating is on. It seems that once I have the system flowing, it works ok but stops when the water cools.
Not sure if I can tee closer to the boiler.
Thanks
Not sure if I can tee closer to the boiler.
Thanks
N
nick/matt1
would still look to balancing the system, and changing trv. The pipework after the rad is more likely the problem, unless as already stated there is a restriction in the feed
J
JimField
This is worth a try . Remove RAD close flow valve leave return open and close all other radiators.If this is a gravity system cap the vent pipe to the Fill and expansion,if a pressurised system no problem .Connect mains pressure to the heating system and open the return on the problem rad .The idea is to blow all the crap back out of the return pipe of this problemed area ,it may take some serious flow and keep pulling water off ,sounds like a bottle neck has become blocked and needs reverse flow to clear it. Hope this helps.
J
jase158
it seems to me that you are looking for an easy fix and imho there is no quick fix,
your options.
1. Put the pump on and AAV push the pump every few days, this will get the system running and like you say maybe when it gets hotter, you will not have to keep doing it, but if it is a blockage in the summer it will get worse. Remember to put 2 iso valves on there so it doesnt leak after you finnished and a iso valve on pipework that is being taken out so it doesn't just circulate in a circle.
2. Take floorboards/ walls up, replace joins and check for dirt
3. Get the system powerflushed and hope it is sorted by this (not sure this will work but might do)
4. Re-pipe the pipework so that it is connected to another rad
My opinion is get a proffesional in to do the work properly, get it fixed now and you wont have problems later
your options.
1. Put the pump on and AAV push the pump every few days, this will get the system running and like you say maybe when it gets hotter, you will not have to keep doing it, but if it is a blockage in the summer it will get worse. Remember to put 2 iso valves on there so it doesnt leak after you finnished and a iso valve on pipework that is being taken out so it doesn't just circulate in a circle.
2. Take floorboards/ walls up, replace joins and check for dirt
3. Get the system powerflushed and hope it is sorted by this (not sure this will work but might do)
4. Re-pipe the pipework so that it is connected to another rad
My opinion is get a proffesional in to do the work properly, get it fixed now and you wont have problems later
F
fuzzy
when hot it works when cold it doesnt. sound like a section is working on gravity and therefore the pump is missing the rad out as such. can you swap the tee for a swept tee
J
jase158
when hot it works when cold it doesnt. sound like a section is working on gravity and therefore the pump is missing the rad out as such. can you swap the tee for a swept tee
I was thinking something like that but didnt know it was possible, thanks fuzzy, learn something new every day
N
nick/matt1
this rad isnt run on when hot water only selected by any chance?
S
stubob3000
You definately need a permanent solution to this.....
There seems to be 2 major changes to the system since the rad hasnt worked (but did for 18 years?) A new towel rad and a new pump. I agree with an earlier post that the pump may not be as powerful as the older pump (so hot water is having a harder time trying to get to this lonely rad through longer than normal pipework over obstacles etc) If this is the case? Then if you tee this rads flow closer to the boiler you will be removing an awkward dead leg of pipework which may work??
But we need to also look at the other changes you have made since it stopped working... Can you remove the towel rad and place a temporary bridge between the flow and return (like you did in the cloakroom, using 15mm) Just to rule out the fact since this rad was installed with its new (but could be faulty) TRVs the cloakroom rad didnt work? worth a shot?!
The other major defect could be a possible blockage in the system (air or debris)? Again the original pump may have not had an issue....
The best fix is probably to power flush piipework to be on the safe side, although I would also recommend re-doing the flow and/or return pipework to rad?
Just a brainstorm here, but will the system all on max, including all TRVs and lockshields (and thermostats) to maximum WHERE exactly does the hot pipework stop? If you can feel around the system, along flow/return to the problem rad, where does the pipework stop being hot? If it is at a tee to the problem rad, then a swept tee (as suggested earlier) may work or the fact that this rads tail offs from the 2 pipe system are too long??
There seems to be 2 major changes to the system since the rad hasnt worked (but did for 18 years?) A new towel rad and a new pump. I agree with an earlier post that the pump may not be as powerful as the older pump (so hot water is having a harder time trying to get to this lonely rad through longer than normal pipework over obstacles etc) If this is the case? Then if you tee this rads flow closer to the boiler you will be removing an awkward dead leg of pipework which may work??
But we need to also look at the other changes you have made since it stopped working... Can you remove the towel rad and place a temporary bridge between the flow and return (like you did in the cloakroom, using 15mm) Just to rule out the fact since this rad was installed with its new (but could be faulty) TRVs the cloakroom rad didnt work? worth a shot?!
The other major defect could be a possible blockage in the system (air or debris)? Again the original pump may have not had an issue....
The best fix is probably to power flush piipework to be on the safe side, although I would also recommend re-doing the flow and/or return pipework to rad?
Just a brainstorm here, but will the system all on max, including all TRVs and lockshields (and thermostats) to maximum WHERE exactly does the hot pipework stop? If you can feel around the system, along flow/return to the problem rad, where does the pipework stop being hot? If it is at a tee to the problem rad, then a swept tee (as suggested earlier) may work or the fact that this rads tail offs from the 2 pipe system are too long??
N
nick/matt1
could just be that the new towel rail is stealing all the heat and after a couple of hours the rad may kick in? Have you balanced the system?
F
fuzzy
if the towel rail replaced a previous rad its unlikely to be stealing heat as its probably a lower output
it may be more restrictive and with a less powerful pump it simply doesnt get there
it may be more restrictive and with a less powerful pump it simply doesnt get there
D
dontknowitall
The way this thread's going you won't need that radiator as it will be nearly summer ...
0
067256
PaulRB.....you are not alone.
I have the exact same problem as you but on my kitchen rad. I thought i was all alone with this problem!!
If i shut off all other rad lockshields eventually, and i say eventually the rad warms up but does not get HOT,so frustrating.
New rad and valves fitted ( no trv on kitchen rad), tried balancing, tried pump speeds, tried bleeding the air........water coming out of all rads when bled. Have drained system and refilled again....put in inhibitor. NOTHING!!!
return pipe is hot, flow is cold!
Even the plumber i called was baffled.
1 THING THOUGH,
With all the above done, i am getting a constant noise of flowing water at the boiler and also at the pump in the airing cupboard.
Boiler fires but only for about 30 seconds
PLEASE HELP.
I have the exact same problem as you but on my kitchen rad. I thought i was all alone with this problem!!
If i shut off all other rad lockshields eventually, and i say eventually the rad warms up but does not get HOT,so frustrating.
New rad and valves fitted ( no trv on kitchen rad), tried balancing, tried pump speeds, tried bleeding the air........water coming out of all rads when bled. Have drained system and refilled again....put in inhibitor. NOTHING!!!
return pipe is hot, flow is cold!
Even the plumber i called was baffled.
1 THING THOUGH,
With all the above done, i am getting a constant noise of flowing water at the boiler and also at the pump in the airing cupboard.
Boiler fires but only for about 30 seconds
PLEASE HELP.
Halesowen1
Gas Engineer
But he has said he has turned off all other rads, so it would have nothing to do with the towel rad. As with them all off it still dont get hot.
T
trev69
have you taken the automatic valve apart and checked the components inside the needle sticks in that aswell ,and peronally i would put a trv and lockshield on the rad
T
trev69
sounds like the pump in the boiler is dying on you
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