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I’ve been reading through a few threads on here. For larger installs it often seems to be quoted that a design engineer would be required.

Thus seems a little alien to me, I’d expect a spark to be competent enough with basic design principals for a care home. How come this seems to be something done by a third party in the heating sector?
 
It can be done, of course it can. A lot of the time it’s far simpler to allow a particular manufacturer to design the whole package to incorporate all components then you can guarantee compatibility and suitability for task. Also it gives you comeback if something isn’t specced properly. Take an accumulator and an unvented cylinder. I know several manufacturers where they specify that their products should be used in tandem for optimum performance. I think where a lot of what you’re asking comes from is where you have threads where the opening poster is so out of their depth it’s frightening. Trying to cobble this that and the other together because the customer wants it, not giving a moments thought to how it works or will work with other components. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a design company but an experienced heating engineer coupled with a couple of good manufacturer recommendations will find the task far less daunting.
 
Hi Riley,

Possibly so on those very out of their depth.

It’s strange to hear a vendor will design you a system basically to achieve a sale. In my world they would want to charge you £1500/day to come out and complete a survey.

I’m much more used to being expected to be chief cook and bottle washer if you ever expect to get anything done for a reasonably cost with some chance of working
 
'Back in the day', I'd be quite happy designing complete control systems and even panels complete with quite complex relay logic - way before PLCs. If I'm honest, in those times electrical engineers seemed to be (I'll duck now) more 'technically competent' than plumbing engineers.

Electrical engineering is identical to plumbing in reality. It's flow, resistance, emitters, sources etc. Doing my HNC we were taught using water but so far as I could fathom no plumber was ever taught flow etc using electrical context. In my personal plumbing history, plumbers have always been pertified of electricity and would literally run away when I'd try to draw parallels.

Today I find both trades very much more narrow in their outlook. No doubt that's reflective of skills education rather than the individuals. Everything seems so much more siloed and 'not my job'. Personally I feel it's a great shame for both trades because both have so much to learn from one another.
 
I agree with everything you’ve said there.

I design measurement/control systems for the oil, gas, chemical and power sectors. It sounds like you’ve got a fair few more years experience under your belt than me but I’ve come to realise 75% of engineers and technicians are winging it a significant amount of the time.

It’s not something limited to the construction industry it seems endemic in all walks of life. A lot of the time I think it’s just because people don’t care.

Heating components like most things have been “value engineered” (that’s the technical name for making more Rubbish) to death over the past 50 years. But they’ve also got a lot more complicated. You’d need half a room full of relays, trip amps and timers to make a system that complied with building regs these days.
 
I agree with everything you’ve said there.

I design measurement/control systems for the oil, gas, chemical and power sectors. It sounds like you’ve got a fair few more years experience under your belt than me but I’ve come to realise 75% of engineers and technicians are winging it a significant amount of the time.

It’s not something limited to the construction industry it seems endemic in all walks of life. A lot of the time I think it’s just because people don’t care.

Heating components like most things have been “value engineered” (that’s the technical name for making more ****) to death over the past 50 years. But they’ve also got a lot more complicated. You’d need half a room full of relays, trip amps and timers to make a system that complied with building regs these days.

Oh bl00dy hell dont get me started...

Firstly, todays products are engineered to fail not to succeed. The great British pubic falls for the lies & BS of manus cos they throw so much money at it it simply cannot be escaped. People are mugged into thinking, "Oh its a big company, so they wouldn't do that!" They can, they do. End of. Just look at boilers. Until recently the UK was the LARGEST boiler market ON EARTH. WTF. How is it we were buying more boilers than countries with 10 times more people than us? Its easy. We were royally mugged. Sold systems that failed and needed replacing, time after time after time.

My 1997 Ideal Mexico is still purring away beautifully and using less gas than the poshest of modern boilers as its connected to a compensated flow system which is controlled by a 1989 optimiser coupled with a modern geo fenced smart controller.

Compliance is bullsh1t personified.:mad::mad::mad:
 
There brought in before the guys actually quote these days spec it up then get pipefitters to install following the line diagrams

So cheaper in the long run and guaranteed to work
 
My 1997 Ideal Mexico is still purring away beautifully and using less gas than the poshest of modern boilers as its connected to a compensated flow system which is controlled by a 1989 optimiser coupled with a modern geo fenced smart controller.
I agree. Give me a Glow Worm Hideaway or Ideal Mexico and I'd be chuffed to bits with that over any modern domestic Boiler.
 
I’ve been reading through a few threads on here. For larger installs it often seems to be quoted that a design engineer would be required.

When I suggest it, it is normally due to the reason @Riley gave, meaning that someone sounds 'out of their depth'. Plumbing and Heating is quite often a subject that lay persons have little understanding of, yet seem to think that they can buy over-sized equipment, pipe it together and all will be fine, particularly on more of the private light Commercial systems.

Thus seems a little alien to me, I’d expect a spark to be competent enough with basic design principals for a care home. How come this seems to be something done by a third party in the heating sector?

In my experience it isn't. We design, spec and install all our own work. As Heating Engineers that's an important part of our job as you would expect.

Larger companies do tend to work with a Commercial Heating consultant and design team along with pipe fitters, electrical Engineers, Gas Engineers (other fuels of course), Plumbers etc etc. You would come across those in say, a new build School, Hotel, Hospital etc. This is due to the size of contract.

Commercial Plumbing, Heating and Hot water systems can be a lot more complicated than people realize. It takes many years to become a competent Heating Engineer and to enter into all the whys and wherefores about the subject on a Forum is practically impossible. Sometimes it gets to the point where you think the enquirer would be better served paying for an Engineers experience and advice as opposed to plundering on in the semi-darkness and reading various differing opinions on a forum.

A little knowledge is dangerous!
 

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