Do all my inserts need replacing?

[A_Lawre]

Hi all
The other day a pipe had burst in the bathroom under the floorboards due to one of the caps (not sure of the actual technical name) falling off. This completely flooded our downstairs. The plumber said it was due to cheap inserts being used. So my question is, should we have a plumber round to check out every single insert and change them so that this doesn’t happen again? OR are the inserts that we have okay?
In the picture the shorter insert is what we have throughout the house. The longer one is what the plumber replaced it with.
Thanks
Amy

 

[steadyon]

1. Neither are right. The pipe fitting is a JG Guest Speedfit.
2. The short one looks like the old style Hep2O insert. They are not cheap, but they are not the right ones.
3. The new one I don't know, but its not a Speedfit insert, unless they have changed radically.
4. Should you change them all? Given its a problem you now know about, any future insurance claim would be difficult. So in prudence, yes, at least on the pipework under mains pressure - mains cold water, and, if you have a combi boiler or unvented cylinder, domestic hot water.
5. However, given that many may be in inaccessible places, you might like to take the risk, I know I would.

 

[Ric2013]

The new insert is certainly a new style Hep20.

I'd say it depends on what pipe is being used. I'm not aware that manufacturers agree their fittings will work with pipes by other firms (though I can't see why the products would not be compatible, seeing as the external diameter is the same). Given this issue, for my own work, I don't mix manufacturers at all.

On a technical level, however, I believe that mixing will work so long as the insert is of the same type as the pipe being used (on the grounds that the insert will be designed for the bore diameter of the pipe). That said, I've worked with a plumber who insisted on matching the insert to the fitting and then using a different brand of pipe.

If you have Hep2O pipes, then I'd keep the inserts you have in place. If, however, you have JG Speedfit pipes, then I'd be inclined to change the inserts that are reasonably accessible.

My understanding (2nd hand from a Speedfit rep) is that the purpose of the insert is more to prevent leakage than complete failure of the fitting to adhere to the pipe. I must say I do wonder if there were other installation faults other than the wrong insert being used (e.g. perhaps the Speedfit nut wasn't tightened), but I suppose we'll never know.

 

[A_Lawre]

The new insert is certainly a new style Hep20.

I'd say it depends on what pipe is being used. I'm not aware that manufacturers agree their fittings will work with pipes by other firms (though I can't see why the products would not be compatible, seeing as the external diameter is the same). Given this issue, for my own work, I don't mix manufacturers at all.

On a technical level, however, I believe that mixing will work so long as the insert is of the same type as the pipe being used (on the grounds that the insert will be designed for the bore diameter of the pipe). That said, I've worked with a plumber who insisted on matching the insert to the fitting and then using a different brand of pipe.

If you have Hep2O pipes, then I'd keep the inserts you have in place. If, however, you have JG Speedfit pipes, then I'd be inclined to change the inserts that are reasonably accessible.

My understanding (2nd hand from a Speedfit rep) is that the purpose of the insert is more to prevent leakage than complete failure of the fitting to adhere to the pipe. I must say I do wonder if there were other installation faults other than the wrong insert being used (e.g. perhaps the Speedfit nut wasn't tightened), but I suppose we'll never know.

That’s a great answer thank you so much! Do you know if there’s an easy way of seeing which pipes we have? Here are some pics of the pipes

 

[ShaunCorbs]

The white is cheap plastic brand is pipelife

the grey will probably be hep

 

[A_Lawre]

1. Neither are right. The pipe fitting is a JG Guest Speedfit.
2. The short one looks like the old style Hep2O insert. They are not cheap, but they are not the right ones.
3. The new one I don't know, but its not a Speedfit insert, unless they have changed radically.
4. Should you change them all? Given its a problem you now know about, any future insurance claim would be difficult. So in prudence, yes, at least on the pipework under mains pressure - mains cold water, and, if you have a combi boiler or unvented cylinder, domestic hot water.
5. However, given that many may be in inaccessible places, you might like to take the risk, I know I would.

The new insert is certainly a new style Hep20.

I'd say it depends on what pipe is being used. I'm not aware that manufacturers agree their fittings will work with pipes by other firms (though I can't see why the products would not be compatible, seeing as the external diameter is the same). Given this issue, for my own work, I don't mix manufacturers at all.

On a technical level, however, I believe that mixing will work so long as the insert is of the same type as the pipe being used (on the grounds that the insert will be designed for the bore diameter of the pipe). That said, I've worked with a plumber who insisted on matching the insert to the fitting and then using a different brand of pipe.

If you have Hep2O pipes, then I'd keep the inserts you have in place. If, however, you have JG Speedfit pipes, then I'd be inclined to change the inserts that are reasonably accessible.

My understanding (2nd hand from a Speedfit rep) is that the purpose of the insert is more to prevent leakage than complete failure of the fitting to adhere to the pipe. I must say I do wonder if there were other installation faults other than the wrong insert being used (e.g. perhaps the Speedfit nut wasn't tightened), but I suppose we'll never know

1. Neither are right. The pipe fitting is a JG Guest Speedfit.
2. The short one looks like the old style Hep2O insert. They are not cheap, but they are not the right ones.
3. The new one I don't know, but its not a Speedfit insert, unless they have changed radically.
4. Should you change them all? Given its a problem you now know about, any future insurance claim would be difficult. So in prudence, yes, at least on the pipework under mains pressure - mains cold water, and, if you have a combi boiler or unvented cylinder, domestic hot water.
5. However, given that many may be in inaccessible places, you might like to take the risk, I know I would.

Thank you for your answer!! Out of curiosity how much would it cost to replace them?

 

[Ric2013]

Materials cost if you're just replacing inserts should not be especially significant, so the main issue is labour charges and time spent finding the correct fittings for the pipes. (I, for one, only carry Hep2O and Speedfit inserts).

Making that number of holes and notches in a joist is not good practice at all, but what's done is done.

A lot will depend what is in those pipes. If we're just talking the inserts for the fittings in the picture, I'd anticipate an hour [this is just for time spent actually doing the work], possibly two if there are difficulties (those fittings that are very close to the plasterboard may be difficult to remove without leaking water everywhere), but if this is a heating system, it could take all day: time to drain and remove airlocks is always an unknown quantity.

 

[A_Lawre]

Materials cost if you're just replacing inserts should not be especially significant, so the main issue is labour charges and time spent finding the correct fittings for the pipes. (I, for one, only carry Hep2O and Speedfit inserts).

Making that number of holes and notches in a joist is not good practice at all, but what's done is done.

A lot will depend what is in those pipes. If we're just talking the inserts for the fittings in the picture, I'd anticipate an hour [this is just for time spent actually doing the work], possibly two if there are difficulties (those fittings that are very close to the plasterboard may be difficult to remove without leaking water everywhere), but if this is a heating system, it could take all day: time to drain and remove airlocks is always an unknown quantity.

Thank you, you’ve been really helpful. If you were in my situation (without your plumbing experience) would you leave it the way it is or change it?

 

[Ric2013]

Thank you, you’ve been really helpful. If you were in my situation (without your plumbing experience) would you leave it the way it is or change it?

A difficult question to answer. The question to ask, I suppose, is how much damage it could cause vs cost to have preventative work done and what other pressing calls you have on your finances.

I suppose, having already having had a leak, I'd be inclined to have anything reasonably accessible (such as those fittings in your picture) inspected and corrected if it is mains pressure. I'd be slightly less concerned if it's gravity-fed cold or hot water.

If some of that pipework is heating pipework, it could be an open-vented system (look it up) or a sealed system. Open vented is lower pressure so less likely to fail catastrophically, but if it does fail, water will keep pouring as the system refills. Sealed systems are higher pressure but does not keep refilling so you might only leak a few bucketfuls and likely to be cleaner than open-vented. BUT all heating water typically contains impurities and rust, and will stain and smell on top of the potential for water damage.

[Note to heating installers on this forum - I'm not talking about beautifully flushed and properly treated systems here, but the average system, and more so when you come across modifications to this kind of standard.]

 

[Chuck]

Thank you, you’ve been really helpful. If you were in my situation (without your plumbing experience) would you leave it the way it is or change it?

It would depend which part of the system the suspect joints are on. If it was something like the domestic hot or cold or an unvented heating system where failure would be potentially catestrophic I'd be more worried than if it were part of a sealed heating system.

If it were the latter, I'd probably try pressure testing the system (to the manufacturers instructions, of course) and if it passed leave it. If it were a vented heating system I'd consider converting it to sealed.

But if the possible outcome of a failed joint was having the house wrecked to the point of not being habitable and I knew that at least one of them had used the wrong liners and already failed I'd be looking at remedial action and I wouldn't sleep well until it was done.

For hidden defects caused by negligence like this the original installer can remain liable for quite long periods of time. If you can establish who did the work you might have a claim.

I'd probably bite the bullet and just get the work done. Until you've seen the damage that can be done by a burst pipe it's difficult to imagine. Use a long established local firm with a reputation for quality (family firms are a good bet).

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Are you sure the original fitting that has failed was on properly in the first place? The most common cause they usually fail when they've not been pushed on far enough when fitting.

Tbh i've come across pipes that haven't even got inserts in before now that haven't come off!

 

[WC1]

I'm not aware that manufacturers agree their fittings will work with pipes by other firms (though I can't see why the products would not be compatible, seeing as the external diameter is the same). Given this issue, for my own work, I don't mix manufacturers at all.

I believe mfrs specifically exclude warranty claims if systems are mixed, I also insist on matching pipe to insert to fitting

My understanding (2nd hand from a Speedfit rep) is that the purpose of the insert is more to prevent leakage than complete failure of the fitting to adhere to the pipe.

I thought the insert prevents the pipe collapsing under pressure from the grab ring.
However, I recently noticed that a speedfit stem elbow comes from the factory with an insert - even though the short "pipe" bit is very stiff.

Anyone know why that would be?

Perhaps the chamfer on the insert helps make the seal.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

To easy install and to stop pipe deformities when used on compression

 

[Ben-gee]

I think the chamfer is to get past the o ring more easily- if you’ve ever tried to put the square factory end of a copper tube into a push fit fitting you’ll know what I mean.

 

[A_Lawre]

Are you sure the original fitting that has failed was on properly in the first place? The most common cause they usually fail when they've not been pushed on far enough when fitting.

Tbh i've come across pipes that haven't even got inserts in before now that haven't come off!

Here the fitting that popped off, as you can see it has this hardened mixture (maybe plaster?) in it which is preventing the nut from tightening. Could this have been the cause?

 

[Ric2013]

That nut should have been tightened fully. If it wasn't then the fitting wasn't correctly installed, and, if so, I don't think the liner had much to do with the failure.

But your photo does not prove that the nut wasn't tightened. However, if you say it wasn't, I see nothing to disprove what you are saying.

From your previous photos, your other joints seem to have been tightened correctly, however. Perhaps your plumber nipped them up while he was there?

 

[A_Lawre]

That nut should have been tightened fully. If it wasn't then the fitting wasn't correctly installed, and, if so, I don't think the liner had much to do with the failure.

But your photo does not prove that the nut wasn't tightened. However, if you say it wasn't, I see nothing to disprove what you are saying.

From your previous photos, your other joints seem to have been tightened correctly, however. Perhaps your plumber nipped them up while he was there?

The nut is stuck in one place, it physically can’t be moved because of the mixture in it. Yeah he’s checked the other ones to make sure those ones were tight and said they were fine which is something!