Fernox Tf1 total filter reversed flow

[Ric2013]

Not many RGIs would put up with working for an engineer who makes suggestions, to be honest. I do do work for an engineer and find it interesting, but we have some interesting discussions on the best way to do things that some people might find annoying.

Not necessarily your fault, but do be mindful that many in this trade are not academic but have spent a lot of time learning the trade and can feel threatened when someone who in their mind knows nothing about it challenges their knowledge.

As others have said, there is nothing obviously wrong with the work carried out, but if you call out Gas Safe, then if the work is not to standard then you know, and if it is to standard then Gas Safe will say so. I wouldn't worry about getting people into trouble as I suspect Gas Safe inspects a proportion of its installers' installations anyway, so if he's the real thing, he will get the odd check anyway.

 

[Scott_D]

I haven't read all post but from the pictures it looks like a decent enough install.
Cant the valves be isolated and the body rotated on the TF1?

 

[Riley]

Might just be angles but is the flue pic from a window above

 

[DaveB0360]

Might just be angles but is the flue pic from a window above

Yes it is from the landing window.

 

[Riley]

I think it looked closer than it was. Ignore me

 

[DaveB0360]

I haven't read all post but from the pictures it looks like a decent enough install.
Cant the valves be isolated and the body rotated on the TF1?

I'm shocked that you and others feel this is a decent install frankly, although I appreciate it's hard to get a full impression from the photos.
Question, do others feel it's good practice to make soldered joints without deburring or cleaning the copper because I don't, and I've been soldering for nearly 50 years.
I'm shocked also that with the TF1 being so and well known in the trade & commonly used that you don't know the body must remain vertical, the boss/hub can be re-oriented but that should only be carried out by a recognised tradesman and is less than optimal. There were zero difficulties in fitting it correctly and if the engineer had actually known how to install an anti thermosiphon loop then I wouldn't have had to even mention it, let alone give instructions on how to fashion one. Just like I shouldn't have to question or inspect the work of a trained and licensed professional on fitting a TF1 filter.

 

[DaveB0360]

I think it looked closer than it was. Ignore me

No problem, when viewed from the rear yard, it's leaning noticeably sideways to the right, when viewed from the side view, it's leaning significantly towards the back yard.... Away from the window where I took the photo, he struggled to get the flashing far enough up the roof to get it vertical because of 'nails' so he cut a square section out of the back corner of it to clear the nails. A bodge.

 

[Aire]

I'm going to be honest here, I've googled anti thermosiphon loop and still non the wiser as to what it actually is

I'll also be honest and it sickens me to say but I don't always debur my copper prior to soldering but I do always clean it.

And as for the pictures, as mentioned they don't really give us the whole picture as to what's wrong, we can't see any of the faults you mention so we can't comment, the only thing we can see is the filter, which can be taken off and you can flip the orientation of it, perfectly acceptable to do so, so not sure why you say it's not optimal.

 

[Riley]

I'm shocked that you and others feel this is a decent install frankly, although I appreciate it's hard to get a full impression from the photos.
Question, do others feel it's good practice to make soldered joints without deburring or cleaning the copper because I don't, and I've been soldering for nearly 50 years.
I'm shocked also that with the TF1 being so and well known in the trade & commonly used that you don't know the body must remain vertical, the boss/hub can be re-oriented but that should only be carried out by a recognised tradesman and is less than optimal. There were zero difficulties in fitting it correctly and if the engineer had actually known how to install an anti thermosiphon loop then I wouldn't have had to even mention it, let alone give instructions on how to fashion one. Just like I shouldn't have to question or inspect the work of a trained and licensed professional on fitting a TF1 filter.

Reel it in a bit mate. We are trying to help. For free I might add. Trust us, based on some shockers we see this isn’t anywhere close to the worst. That is not however saying that this is acceptable. Obviously not a confident solderer as there’s no need to use Yorkshire’s where he has. The big thing here is the lack of commissioning documentation which I’d be reporting him for. And also I think my colleague was alluding to the TF1 having it’s attaching body rotated not the cylinder itself so please don’t take us for simpletans. Ps quoting thermosiphons and the like are all very well but are rarely necessary. It’s starting to sound more and more like you have looked over this blokes shoulder throughout to be honest if you did that to me I’d be rushing to get out the door. Furthermore, because you can solder does not make you able to pipesize, or system design, you may be able to but it’s inconsequential you’ve employed this guy to do a job. My advice. Stop worrying, get gas safe in for a free assessment, get put right whatever they pick up and move on. Life is too short. This started off friendly let’s keep it that way eh?

 

[DaveB0360]

I'm going to be honest here, I've googled anti thermosiphon loop and still non the wiser as to what it actually is

I'll also be honest and it sickens me to say but I don't always debur my copper prior to soldering but I do always clean it.

And as for the pictures, as mentioned they don't really give us the whole picture as to what's wrong, we can't see any of the faults you mention so we can't comment, the only thing we can see is the filter, which can be taken off and you can flip the orientation of it, perfectly acceptable to do so, so not sure why you say it's not optimal.

Hi Craig, Anti thermosiphon loop is an old school technique to prevent gravitational flow of heated water from rising.
In the case of Intergas boilers, they have a dual back to back hex for heating and hot water and no divertor valve (I think ferolli have similar in their Modena) during hw call, the pump is not powered but water in the heating circuit can thermosiphon through to rads if not checked. Check valves can be used to prevent this in upwards flowing pipework but sending flow pipe downwards for a short distance then looping back upwards also prevents the thermosiphon effect since hot water will not happily follow a downward path. It works and is failure free, no moving parts, the only thing to remember is to include a drain off. It's also used in solar collectors.

 

[Aire]

Hi Craig, Anti thermosiphon loop is an old school technique to prevent gravitational flow of heated water from rising.
In the case of Intergas boilers, they have a dual back to back hex for heating and hot water and no divertor valve (I think ferolli have similar in their Modena) during hw call, the pump is not powered but water in the heating circuit can thermosiphon through to rads if not checked. Check valves can be used to prevent this in upwards flowing pipework but sending flow pipe downwards for a short distance then looping back upwards also prevents the thermosiphon effect since hot water will not happily follow a downward path. It works and is failure free, no moving parts, the only thing to remember is to include a drain off. It's also used in solar collectors.

Thanks for the info, always good to learn something new

 

[DaveB0360]

Reel it in a bit mate. We are trying to help. For free I might add. Trust us, based on some shockers we see this isn’t anywhere close to the worst. That is not however saying that this is acceptable. Obviously not a confident solderer as there’s no need to use Yorkshire’s where he has. The big thing here is the lack of commissioning documentation which I’d be reporting him for. And also I think my colleague was alluding to the TF1 having it’s attaching body rotated not the cylinder itself so please don’t take us for simpletans. Ps quoting thermosiphons and the like are all very well but are rarely necessary. It’s starting to sound more and more like you have looked over this blokes shoulder throughout to be honest if you did that to me I’d be rushing to get out the door. Furthermore, because you can solder does not make you able to pipesize, or system design, you may be able to but it’s inconsequential you’ve employed this guy to do a job. My advice. Stop worrying, get gas safe in for a free assessment, get put right whatever they pick up and move on. Life is too short. This started off friendly let’s keep it that way eh?

Riley, I appreciate the help and not intentionally being awkward or disrespectful. I certainly didn't stand over his shoulder but I did observe of course, I thought his methods might have been worth learning..... I like to learn, always have even at nearly 60, still like to learn. Perhaps if I had checked him along the way, I might not have ended up with such a dogs breakfast and perhaps if he'd taken offense and walked off the job, I'd have been better off. I had higher expectations but perhaps my expectations are too high. I don't know but if I've offended then I apologise regardless. I'm most certainly going to take yours and others advice.
And as I write this, I seem to smell a little gas.... Better go check.... Goodnight and many thanks.

 

[DaveB0360]

Hi Craig, Anti thermosiphon loop is an old school technique to prevent gravitational flow of heated water from rising.
In the case of Intergas boilers, they have a dual back to back hex for heating and hot water and no divertor valve (I think ferolli have similar in their Modena) during hw call, the pump is not powered but water in the heating circuit can thermosiphon through to rads if not checked. Check valves can be used to prevent this in upwards flowing pipework but sending flow pipe downwards for a short distance then looping back upwards also prevents the thermosiphon effect since hot water will not happily follow a downward path. It works and is failure free, no moving parts, the only thing to remember is to include a drain off. It's also used in solar collectors.

It's actually not called gravitational flow but I forget the correct terminology.... Lol

 

[Aire]

It's actually not called gravitational flow but I forget the correct terminology.. Lol

I believe it's gravitational convection

 

[DaveB0360]

I believe it's gravitational convection

Yeah.... Or even just convection..... Lol.... Been out of school too long....

 

[Aire]

Yeah.. Or even just convection... Lol.. Been out of school too long..

Me too and I'm only 31

 

[fezster]

I've had many RGI's over the years (including 3 for work in the last 5 years) - I've yet to meet one that deburrs the pipes! To be fair to them, it is time consuming and they are probably usually employed based on the price they give, so deburring would add to their time and cost. However, it would be nice if they were to give the option for somebody who knows what deburring is. I suppose your average joe wouldn't.

Pipe cleaning is usually a given, though. They'd be unlikely to get a good soldered joint if they didn't do so on old pipework.

 

[Scott_D]

I doubt many people deburr pipe, its not required.
Any joints I solder and dont clean are green the next day! maybe I use the wrong flux.

 

[DaveB0360]

I've had many RGI's over the years (including 3 for work in the last 5 years) - I've yet to meet one that deburrs the pipes! To be fair to them, it is time consuming and they are probably usually employed based on the price they give, so deburring would add to their time and cost. However, it would be nice if they were to give the option for somebody who knows what deburring is. I suppose your average joe wouldn't.

Pipe cleaning is usually a given, though. They'd be unlikely to get a good soldered joint if they didn't do so on old pipework.

Exactly, I fear that's the case across most trades nowadays. Corners can be cut unnoticeably by most tradesmen because customers are generally clueless and have little interest in anything but the price. I'd have paid the guy double for a quality, craftsman like job but I think, where I live, most people are poor and price is the only thing that gets the sale. I'm not wealthy by any stretch but I place value on quality and in my experience, it's worth sacrifice.

 

[Scott_D]

Exactly, I fear that's the case across most trades nowadays. Corners can be cut unnoticeably by most tradesmen because customers are generally clueless and have little interest in anything but the price. I'd have paid the guy double for a quality, craftsman like job but I think, where I live, most people are poor and price is the only thing that gets the sale. I'm not wealthy by any stretch but I place value on quality and in my experience, it's worth sacrifice.

Did you make this known before the job started?

 

[DaveB0360]

I doubt many people deburr pipe, its not required.
Any joints I solder and dont clean are green the next day! maybe I use the wrong flux.

Laco has that trait..... He used fernox flux..... Not a problem, it seemed a good clean flux but my main gripe was that he never cleaned the copper before fluxing, even when obviously tarnished, that left even him doubting some joints when drips appeared after power up.... It was condensation but he doubted his own joints.

 

[DaveB0360]

Did you make this known before the job started?

Yep, I told him I was fussy, was more interested in a good job and that almost word for word, I've obviously got a budget but I wasn't out to Rob anyone..... Which I thought was a fair upfront and honest approach. He gave his price, I never haggled and agreed immediately, even paid him a £50 tip for at least turning up on time and he was clearly a good worker.... And a nice personable guy.
I offered to labour for him, which I did, I bought everything needed but he seemed to prefer using his own Yorkshire fittings mostly, rather than the endex end feed ones I'd bought.... No big deal really.

 

[DaveB0360]

I've had many RGI's over the years (including 3 for work in the last 5 years) - I've yet to meet one that deburrs the pipes! To be fair to them, it is time consuming and they are probably usually employed based on the price they give, so deburring would add to their time and cost. However, it would be nice if they were to give the option for somebody who knows what deburring is. I suppose your average joe wouldn't.

Pipe cleaning is usually a given, though. They'd be unlikely to get a good soldered joint if they didn't do so on old pipework.

Admittedly all my pipework was new but its still good craftsmanship to clean and all my new joints were routinely cleaned & deburred.

 

[Ric2013]

I see your point about deburring and I don't. You really need to consider what the deburring is achieving. While I myself do like to use a pen deburrer whenever possible, I can accept that in most cases the speed of flow is unlikely to result in significant turbulence. After all, since 22mm has twice the volume of 15mm, it is likely that almost all 22mm application is actually not correct pipe sizing, but over-engineering (but it avoids using obscure pipe sizes that are not readily available). Short of doing a full pipe run calculation, it would be impossible to comment. Very probably, all I'm usually achieving is wasting time.

I worked with a guy once who was obsessed about the need to run pulled bends rather than elbows to a radiator that was right next to the boiler, while on the same system there were radiators at a great distance. All I was thinking was that any reduction in flow resistance from the pulled bends would just mean increased balancing would be required to ensure the distant radiators received adequate flow.

Anti-thermosiphon loops are not that uncommon, and, if you think about it, the need for the vent pipe running from a hot water cylinder to be 18" away from the cylinder outlet and connected by a near-horizontal pipe is to prevent parasitical circulation, one-pipe circulation, unwanted thermosiphoning or whatever you want to call it, so it's much the same thing. But we do all call it different things and I must say that, while I have both used and come across such loops in the course of my work, they were not really explained to me at college and so I'm not quite sure what they are supposed to be called either!

 

[DaveB0360]

I see your point about deburring and I don't. You really need to consider what the deburring is achieving. While I myself do like to use a pen deburrer whenever possible, I can accept that in most cases the speed of flow is unlikely to result in significant turbulence. After all, since 22mm has twice the volume of 15mm, it is likely that almost all 22mm application is actually not correct pipe sizing, but over-engineering (but it avoids using obscure pipe sizes that are not readily available). Short of doing a full pipe run calculation, it would be impossible to comment. Very probably, all I'm usually achieving is wasting time.

I worked with a guy once who was obsessed about the need to run pulled bends rather than elbows to a radiator that was right next to the boiler, while on the same system there were radiators at a great distance. All I was thinking was that any reduction in flow resistance from the pulled bends would just mean increased balancing would be required to ensure the distant radiators received adequate flow.

Anti-thermosiphon loops are not that uncommon, and, if you think about it, the need for the vent pipe running from a hot water cylinder to be 18" away from the cylinder outlet and connected by a near-horizontal pipe is to prevent parasitical circulation, one-pipe circulation, unwanted thermosiphoning or whatever you want to call it, so it's much the same thing. But we do all call it different things and I must say that, while I have both used and come across such loops in the course of my work, they were not really explained to me at college and so I'm not quite sure what they are supposed to be called either!

Thanks for your input.... I am a fussy bugger but I actually assumed that with all the hype over the essential mandating of gas safe rgi's, that standards were very high..... Needless to say, I've had a rude awakening and now have eroded trust in tradesmen.... Common for me.