Gas fire service advice!!

[nellyc79]

Hi,
hoping some1 on here has a bit more experience in the gas fire department. I have a customer who wants there fire servicing. The fire is about 25 year old! it is the type of which it has a basket of coals and a gas pipe with central burner. the customer operates the gas supply via a gas valve to switch on and off, and lights with a match!! I know its scary!! the fire is very sooty and needs a strip down service and clean. There are no safety devices on this fire. Not sure how to handle this as if the fire is burning ok and chimney fine what about the safety aspect due to the design of the fire?

cheers
Neil

 

[andyg0507]

gas safe registration would be a start going by unlined comment at the bottom of you page.

 

[Toddyplumb]

Gas Safe for this im afraid

 

[nellyc79]

gas safe registration would be a start going by unlined comment at the bottom of you page.

Very clever!!!! I am gas safe but was just asking the views of others, as really what i should be doing is classifying it AR. I haven't even touched the fire yet!! and as customer doesn't have the manufacturers instructions I should probably just not touch it. But thats not helping any1. A bit like you!!!

 

[Dannypipe]

It sounds like the appliance should be listed as NCS, or possibly ID. Capped and labeled.

Are you gas safe registered for fires? I'm only registered for boilers...adding cookers, and fires next month when I renew. Also got to buy an anyaliser and do that course. Full week at college for me as of the 9th August. Quite a bore!

I only ask, as it doesn't sound like you're using the correct terminology, and at the very least it will have some form of basic safety device. Thermomagnetic I would have thought.

The reason registered people get angry is we pay a lot of money to ensure we don't break the law, and yet we're constantly undercut by unregistered swines.

 

[kirkgas]

It sounds like the appliance should be listed as NCS, or possibly ID. Capped and labeled.

Are you gas safe registered for fires? I'm only registered for boilers...adding cookers, and fires next month when I renew. Also got to buy an anyaliser and do that course. Full week at college for me as of the 9th August. Quite a bore!

I only ask, as it doesn't sound like you're using the correct terminology, and at the very least it will have some form of basic safety device. Thermomagnetic I would have thought.

The reason registered people get angry is we pay a lot of money to ensure we don't break the law, and yet we're constantly undercut by unregistered swines.

we the great trained/experienced need to be careful when quoting regs and getting angry, the guy has asked for advice lets give some rather than pelters, he doesnt have the MI and says he wont touch, thats a good start for me, why should a 25yr old fire which was designed without a modern safety device be AR or ID? (its another arguement to say no appliance should have been allowed on the market without a safety device, but there are plenty of cookers still on sale without) Dannypipe by your own admission you dont have any competance in fires, so when you go for your HTR1 ACS you will learn all about old OF appliances without any safety device, piezzo ignition or any such thing, i have seen tons of old fires with fixed pilot which keeps blowing out leaving unburnt gas filling the living room, it simply needs a service and clean to get up and running again,
to the OP get the make and model and the MI's, follow closely and get all your safety checks done (slowly) and properly and learn well from the job, it sounds like a DFE so will prob need 100cm2 free air vent etc, let us know how you get on.

It sounds like the appliance should be listed as NCS, or possibly ID. Capped and labeled.

Danny why NCS or ID, if it is fitted as per design it is not NCS, if it isnt spilling it isnt ID, the OP has asked for some guidence on an appliance he isnt familiar with, it doesnt look as if you are very competant to advise him on fires with these comments, don't mean to upset you

 

[andyg0507]

nelly79, the reason i stated that was the comment you had written under your post in red, wich very strangely you have now removed!!

not being funny but if your going to post stuff and ask questions, then seriously if i know the answer i will assist if i can, but if i feel that you are not qualified to do someting your not, wich the underlined comment in red on yor op clearly stated, then thats not right.

also nelly79 whats your gsr no?

 

[Plucky]

Kirkgas I have a lot of respect for you as you are a knowledgable chap and obvious know what your talking about but lets be honest.

This is an open flued appliance with no FSD, no ODS. This is an accident waiting to happen. In the 80's this was acceptable. But in the year 2010 do we really need this.

Sure the guy can be servicing it and making sure it does work Ok and there is no spillage. Thats better than not touching it. But surely wouldnt the better option be to advise the customer how dangerous this appliance can be and offer a replacement with latest safety devices incoporated.

 

[kirkgas]

Kirkgas I have a lot of respect for you as you are a knowledgable chap and obvious know what your talking about but lets be honest.

This is an open flued appliance with no FSD, no ODS. This is an accident waiting to happen. In the 80's this was acceptable. But in the year 2010 do we really need this.

Sure the guy can be servicing it and making sure it does work Ok and there is no spillage. Thats better than not touching it. But surely wouldnt the better option be to advise the customer how dangerous this appliance can be and offer a replacement with latest safety devices incoporated.

i always quote safety at all costs, and agree to discuss appliance shortcomings with customer and let them make an informed choice, but put simply a properly working fire is neither NCS or ID, in all honesty there must be many thousand properly working fires like this, and the question of advising the customer never came up as the OP got immediate pelters ( i didnt see the comment that is now removed, so it might have been merited) but has has posted to say he is GSR and inexperienced in this trype of fire

 

[Rodreguez]

Kirkgas I have a lot of respect for you as you are a knowledgable chap and obvious know what your talking about but lets be honest.

This is an open flued appliance with no FSD, no ODS. This is an accident waiting to happen. In the 80's this was acceptable. But in the year 2010 do we really need this.

Sure the guy can be servicing it and making sure it does work Ok and there is no spillage. Thats better than not touching it. But surely wouldnt the better option be to advise the customer how dangerous this appliance can be and offer a replacement with latest safety devices incoporated.

i agree but you can only recommend.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

we the great trained/experienced need to be careful when quoting regs and getting angry, the guy has asked for advice lets give some rather than pelters, he doesnt have the MI and says he wont touch, thats a good start for me, why should a 25yr old fire which was designed without a modern safety device be AR or ID? (its another arguement to say no appliance should have been allowed on the market without a safety device, but there are plenty of cookers still on sale without) Dannypipe by your own admission you dont have any competance in fires, so when you go for your HTR1 ACS you will learn all about old OF appliances without any safety device, piezzo ignition or any such thing, i have seen tons of old fires with fixed pilot which keeps blowing out leaving unburnt gas filling the living room, it simply needs a service and clean to get up and running again,
to the OP get the make and model and the MI's, follow closely and get all your safety checks done (slowly) and properly and learn well from the job, it sounds like a DFE so will prob need 100cm2 free air vent etc, let us know how you get on.

It sounds like the appliance should be listed as NCS, or possibly ID. Capped and labeled.

Danny why NCS or ID, if it is fitted as per design it is not NCS, if it isnt spilling it isnt ID, the OP has asked for some guidence on an appliance he isnt familiar with, it doesnt look as if you are very competant to advise him on fires with these comments, don't mean to upset you

well put kirk,this fire was made before asd,thermocople etc that does not make it ar or id,but you do need mi,s it will probably need 100cm2 ventilation as well as a class 1 flue

 

[nellyc79]

nelly79, the reason i stated that was the comment you had written under your post in red, wich very strangely you have now removed!!

not being funny but if your going to post stuff and ask questions, then seriously if i know the answer i will assist if i can, but if i feel that you are not qualified to do someting your not, wich the underlined comment in red on yor op clearly stated, then thats not right.

also nelly79 whats your gsr no?

The reason my signature strip said that was because YES i am pretty new to the gas side of plumbing!! did you not once start somewere? I can asure you that i am the last person to work on something without knowing what i am doing and i pride myself in doing everything by the book and correctly and thats why i run a successful business!!

P.S I don't give my gas safe number to people who want to glote. ONLY INSPECTORS and customers.

I came on this forum to learn and get useful info as I respect all those plumbers who know more than i ever will, BUT I am LEGAL and SAFE and thats all you need to know!

 

[kirkgas]

i agree but you can only recommend.

Gents, I agree with you both, but as Danny was giving pelters I would still like him to justify his call of either NCS or ID

The reason my signature strip said that was because YES i am pretty new to the gas side of plumbing!! did you not once start somewere? I can asure you that i am the last person to work on something without knowing what i am doing and i pride myself in doing everything by the book and correctly and thats why i run a successful business!!

P.S I don't give my gas safe number to people who want to glote. ONLY INSPECTORS and customers.

I came on this forum to learn and get useful info as I respect all those plumbers who know more than i ever will, BUT I am LEGAL and SAFE and thats all you need to know!

Hoy!! is that a polite way of saying we are old codgers!!!!!!!!
everytime i learn something new i have to push some old stuff out, its just a case of choosing what to chuck out, keep pushing on and asking thats what the clever people do

 

[nellyc79]

Kirkgas I have a lot of respect for you as you are a knowledgable chap and obvious know what your talking about but lets be honest.

This is an open flued appliance with no FSD, no ODS. This is an accident waiting to happen. In the 80's this was acceptable. But in the year 2010 do we really need this.

Sure the guy can be servicing it and making sure it does work Ok and there is no spillage. Thats better than not touching it. But surely wouldnt the better option be to advise the customer how dangerous this appliance can be and offer a replacement with latest safety devices incoporated.

Im NOT servicing it!! and don't intend to until i get more info, i am ringing gas safe tomorrow and explaining the situation. The gas fire is isolated and i have told customer not to use until i have sorted the situation. I have explained to the customer that its got no safety devices. She is fully aware.

 

[GASMAN10]

Hi

I am also new to the industry, same as nelly and find that when you are on your own, your learning on the finer details really start! Always something new each day!

I have a bbu/fire to service in the next few week. The owner has put a radiator like cover over the fire. The sides are almost solid, in front of the (not used) fire is slatted and below is a 4 inch opening, full width to the floor for air for the BBU.

Can anyone help with the rules for this. I imagine that the opening on these have to be at least the same size as the vent.

Many thanks

Stan

 

[nellyc79]

i always quote safety at all costs, and agree to discuss appliance shortcomings with customer and let them make an informed choice, but put simply a properly working fire is neither NCS or ID, in all honesty there must be many thousand properly working fires like this, and the question of advising the customer never came up as the OP got immediate pelters ( i didnt see the comment that is now removed, so it might have been merited) but has has posted to say he is GSR and inexperienced in this trype of fire

The quote i removed from my signature was "Plumbing Junior For Now" The reason being that i am fairly new to the gas side of plumbing but i have my acs in all categorys including CPA and Energy EFF. And I am fully registered Gas Safe.

Hi

I am also new to the industry, same as nelly and find that when you are on your own, your learning on the finer details really start! Always something new each day!

I have a bbu/fire to service in the next few week. The owner has put a radiator like cover over the fire. The sides are almost solid, in front of the (not used) fire is slatted and below is a 4 inch opening, full width to the floor for air for the BBU.

Can anyone help with the rules for this. I imagine that the opening on these have to be at least the same size as the vent.

Many thanks

Stan

Bloody Hell mate!! R u sure you want to ask that question?? I don't know why i bothered!!

Gents, I agree with you both, but as Danny was giving pelters I would still like him to justify his call of either NCS or ID



Hoy!! is that a polite way of saying we are old codgers!!!!!!!!
everytime i learn something new i have to push some old stuff out, its just a case of choosing what to chuck out, keep pushing on and asking thats what the clever people do

Cheers Kirk, thanks for helping me out from the attack!! I know were to come now I no some things probably sound silly to most experience guys, but i NEVER have and NEVER will compromise safety thats why im asking and i will be on phone to gas safe tommorrow

 

[Bernie2]

The thing is, appliances fitted under previous regulation are not necessarily unsafe, just sub standard to todays standards.

Really if it passes all the usual tests and there is no requirements in the current regulations to upgrade the fire, then obviously it must be okay but sub standard.

I fitted loads of these when they first became popular, but must admit many did have at least a basic thermocouple.

DFE's where covered by BS 5871 and in the absence of manufacturers instructions its permissible to follow BS. Also look at BS 5258.

Ventilation is also a problem with this sort of fire and I would advise you look up the relevant BS requirements for it as well.

There are a few more BS as well, that relate to this sort of fire. Go down the library and look them up may help.

 

[andyg0507]

nelly79 in no way shape or form was i trying to attack you, yes we all have to start somewhere, and after reading you last few posts know where your coming from.

but why not in future let people know from the start know your position and things would be alot smoother.

im sure youd be saying the same things if it were you on the other foot.

 

[Leadlotus]

Gasman10 i to am new to this however i will give it a crack and give you my answer which may be wrong however the guys on the forum will keep us right.
The MIs give guidance on surrounds and wall finishes, however my take on it would be that the new surround would have to be removed as it is in front of an appliance that "could be used", whether it is or not. The surround also could be combustible and possibly too near to the fire.
As i said before i could be wrong and i am willing to learn why.

 

[nellyc79]

Also there is 100cm2 ventilation in the room, and its a brick chimney

Nelly

 

[Dannypipe]

Kirkgas - I did not give any 'pelters' (not that I know exactly what you mean by that, but assume you mean I was out of order).

I merely suggested that the appliance could be dangerous. The opinion on here is mixed, with other engineers suggesting it could be.

I also added, from the outset, that I am NOT qualified to work on fires, or cookers, or space heaters, or anything but boilers. I made that abundantly clear.

I said, it sounded like the OP was in over his head. The fire has no FSD and which I found hard to believe, (but I'm sure from your post there are plenty out there).

In summary what I'll add is this....I am part P registered with Nappit for electrical installs. Yet the other day I had a fault on a job with the consumer unit, and it was over my head. I told the client 'on paper I can legally do this work, but I don't have the expertise to safely do it' and with that I called my mate Mick the spark.

Just because we're allowed to do certain jobs, doesn't mean we should. Not when peoples lifes are at risk.

Oh and my NCS - well it's not to current standards, is it? ID was a bit strong, but again as I pointed out, not my area of expertise. I was just offering an opinon.

 

[nellyc79]

nelly79 in no way shape or form was i trying to attack you, yes we all have to start somewhere, and after reading you last few posts know where your coming from.

but why not in future let people know from the start know your position and things would be alot smoother.

im sure youd be saying the same things if it were you on the other foot.

gas safe registration would be a start going by unlined comment at the bottom of you page.

I didn't get chance to!! you just assumed that i was sat on a horse!!

Lets just leave it at that and at least we know now that your more experienced than me!! So be NICE!!

 

[kirkgas]

Stan, re working on the back boiler,
this is a simple one, get a screwdriver and get the rad cover away from the bbu/fire, nice and simple no alterations to design/use are allowed, air intakes are designed/sized/positioned by the manufacturer to allow proper use of the appliances, these grills may (therefore are a no-no) effect correct operation and are not allowed.
PS if you dont mind me saying these BBU's are simplicity itself to service and repair, however as with all OF appliances check ventilation carefully, less than 90% of required vent = AR, make sure you are happy with flue flow and spillage test procedures for the appliances,strip/check/clean all parts, (recommend a CO alarm) and all should be fine

Kirkgas - I did not give any 'pelters' (not that I know exactly what you mean by that, but assume you mean I was out of order).

I merely suggested that the appliance could be dangerous. The opinion on here is mixed, with other engineers suggesting it could be.

I also added, from the outset, that I am NOT qualified to work on fires, or cookers, or space heaters, or anything but boilers. I made that abundantly clear.

I said, it sounded like the OP was in over his head. The fire has no FSD and which I found hard to believe, (but I'm sure from your post there are plenty out there).

"The reason registered people get angry is we pay a lot of money to ensure we don't break the law, and yet we're constantly undercut by unregistered swines."
this is what you said to a guy who is better qualified than you so in my book you were giving him pelters

Just because we're allowed to do certain jobs, doesn't mean we should. Not when peoples lifes are at risk.
i totally agree with this statement and is what the OP was doing before he worked on something he is qualified but in his own mind not competant to do so

Oh and my NCS -
i was clarifying that it isnt NCS, as it is in fact a fully compliant installation,
but fair do to everyones comments about it not being the safest of installs in this day and age, but we need to be careful to advise and allow the customer to take responsibility, i always try to advise people to be careful with classification (it matters not a jot whether i agree with the rules but i stick to them) if i "over classify" with the best intentions and the customer seeks clarification from someone else i will look a fool by not knowing my job,
ach well as long as we are all still pals

 

[tamz]

The fire has no FSD and which I found hard to believe

Still a lot of these around
Cannon gasmiser2.jpg

and still see the odd one of these
cannon cooker.jpg

The gasmiser was the fire that was credited as "saving the gasboard"

 

[Bernie2]

Hey! Tamz!

What are you showing them all the modern stuff for!!!

There is as you know lots of old stuff knocking about.

The thing is, I suppose like Assessor Gas seems to say, it seems gas fitters know all the rules and regulations, but perhaps little about an appliances underlying working principles.


Its a shame.