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Discuss Header Tank Temperature in the UK Plumbers Forums area at Plumbers Forums

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42
Just been in loft and noticed header tank on my vented system is hot. I understand that this acts as a feed for heating and expansion when heating water gets hot.
Is this normal for tank to get very warm?

Both the feed pipe and vent pipe are hot but no water coming out of vent.

Never noticed before and had no work done recently although I have a suspected 2 port valve issue as hot tap water always very hot despite no hot water is active. Also waiting on getting a system flush as have hydrogen in rads.

Heating after bleeding works well.

Any thoughts or suggestions hugely appreciated

Thanks
 
Just been in loft and noticed header tank on my vented system is hot. I understand that this acts as a feed for heating and expansion when heating water gets hot.
Is this normal for tank to get very warm?

Both the feed pipe and vent pipe are hot but no water coming out of vent.

Never noticed before and had no work done recently although I have a suspected 2 port valve issue as hot tap water always very hot despite no hot water is active. Also waiting on getting a system flush as have hydrogen in rads.

Heating after bleeding works well.

Any thoughts or suggestions hugely appreciated

Thanks
Your correct in that the feed and expansion tanks act as
1, A way of filling the system ,beit heating or hws
2,A way for the system to breath and or expand
Your description doesn't say if your tank is heating or pottable water
My assumption is that your talking about the heating, although you do mention excessive temperatures in the dhws ,Does the header tank have separate feed and expansion or is that pipework combined ? It sounds like you have a "S" type heating system this is where you have 2 or more 2 port valves and 1 heating pump, traditionally heating systems of this type were normally configured pumped ch and gravity fed hot water, normally heated via a back boiler and fire front situated in the lounge, this means that the pump only comes on for the CH ,the dhws is satisfied via gravity ,in that the boiler fires for dhws based on the temperature being lower than its set point,as we know heated water rises and cooler water falls this continues until the thermostat is within 3 degrees +/- 2 degrees.
Heating water for your hot water cylinder was given to you as a bye product of having the heating on,say during winter , the pump would push open a none return valve and heating water would flow through your cylinder until its set point was satisfied
Later installations and better installations practices allowed for what we call "fully pumped" systems, this is where the pump runs for both heating and hot water ,the pump would be switched on when the 2 or 3 port valve actuated to its end stop ,pushing on a microswitch this would send power to the pump and boiler switch live, providing your roomstats setpoint was low enough this would start the ignition sequence and fire the boiler and the pump would circulate water until the set point was satisfied if the roomstat was satisfied the pump will continue to run until it falls below that set point, if however the overheat stat switches off the boiler the live supply is blocked and the pump stops ,this is where your problems start your system is what we call venting over ,essentially the boiler is staying on for a period without the pump the water gets too hot and overflows into it expansion tank ,the problem you have is
1, Why is your pump not working
2, Why is the boiler staying on
Your engineer needs to assess your heating system and check its sequence of operation to see at what point its failing ,this is why proper engineers wont give advice over the phone, because guessing causes accidents,
If nothing else your now wiser in heating and heating systems
Hope this helps 👍🏼
Ps Hydrogen gas in a heating system ,again is a bye product of germs of an organic matter have died ,decomposed and produced the gas ,venting the radiator or radiators will emit a smell like a wet fart but joking apart can be quite dangerous and your right to have it removed ,flushing the system will of course remove all matter and decomposition but more beneficially will replace old water for new water this exchange of water should actually be done every 3-4years this will again remove and debris and allow for correct cleaning and the installation of inhibitors these chemicals will slow the production of sludge and excessive pump and valve wear and tear extending the lifespan of the system, you could go a step or 2 further by adding in during the drain down a magnetic particulate filtration device, this will catch large and small down to 3 microns products which left to circulate will eventually block radiators and boiler heat exchangers now your being proactive and that's a good thing
 
All my design guides, college text books, CIBSE heating design etc state a maximum of 150mm. Obviously anything within this distance is acceptable.
If the OP fires the boiler up today whilst he's in the loft he will be able to confirm if it is venting over, if it is then I think we've found our problem.
 
It might be advisable to be in the loft and get someone to start the boiler as it may only be venting on pump start up or stop.

What could the cause be, SJB, IYO, if venting, since distances well within limits?
 
The bit I can't see properly is where (if) the vent is actually coming off the pump inlet just below the cold feed T which is quite clear, it might look as if it does going by the 2 Ts very close together, if everything as it should be then hard not to conclude that no restriction somewhere?.
 
Ah, I apologise. I was looking at the image wrong. I thought the vent was the vertical 22mm on the left. If its as you suggest then should be within limits.
Just so I'm on the same wave length as you John, how are you thinking a restriction is causing potential pump over?
 
I'm thinking of some restriction/build up between the vent and the cold feed because even though very short at ~ 120mm might cause some venting, you wouldn't really know except you removed that whole piece, combining the two as I suggested might be a easier way out.
Only other thing I can think of is very improbable, that the pump is pumping the wrong way.
 
I can see where you're coming from mate but I cant see how a slight restriction would cause the pump to vent over, seeing as the vent is within the neutral point of the systems margin. Of course I could be wrong.
To the OP. Is it hydrogen forming in the system, or hydrogen sulphide? The formation of the two happens for different reasons.
 
I can see where you're coming from mate but I cant see how a slight restriction would cause the pump to vent over, seeing as the vent is within the neutral point of the systems margin. Of course I could be wrong.
To the OP. Is it hydrogen forming in the system, or hydrogen sulphide? The formation of the two happens for different reasons.
All I know is that the "air" coming out of bleeder valve smells of gas and is flammable so just assumed it's Hydrogen forming in system but don't know enough about that side of things I must say.
 
Both hydrogen sulphide and hydrogen are flammable. I believe hydrogen is odorless, whereas hydrogen sulphide smells of rotten eggs. Hydrogen is a by product of rusting and galvanic corrosion and hydrogen sulphide is due to bacterial issues so my understanding is, although chemistry is not my strong point.
 
Thanks again guys fot the assistance!
Ok so I've just been up in the loft and got my daughter to turn the room stat up. There was no sign of any water movement. However when I got her to turn the stat down and turn heating and pump off hot water poured out the vent as you can hopefully see from the video.

Does this mean combining the vent and feed as suggested will resolve this issue?

Thanks again very much
 

Attachments

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The pump is located high up near the cylinder, also if there is a partially blockage restriction in the cold feed then the momentum of the water will quite possibly force the water up the vent.
Its also possible but unlikely with a OF boiler that there is pump overrun but with no ABV (automatic by pass valve) installed so the zone valve(s) close but pump continues on for a minute or so, leading to vent over.

Suggest the following, easiest one first but most unlikely..

Ensure pump orientation correct ie pumping towards the motorised valves.

Turn the cylinder stat down (after noting its setting at 60c or whatever) then latch it open manually, start boiler via roomstat if not already running, then stop it via roomstat and see if same problem persists.

Check that circ pump stops as soon as room stat switches off the boiler.


Combined vent&feed might help but there is a basic problem here which must be solved. I would ensure that the cold feed is absolutely free first of all.

Latching open a motorised valve will, in some cases. start the pump&boiler, so this test above may not work, I know that three Honeywell valves that I opened manually do not start up the system, probably a safety design as latching open these valves is supposedly to be used while filling the system.
 
Last edited:
Pretty much what I was thinking mate. Water is constantly propelled out the discharge of the pump and drawn in on the suction. If the pump suddenly stops the water from discharge side has momentum but little is drawn in through a restriction and as water cant be compressed some takes the path of least resistance and straight up the vent.
 
Combining them is one possibility, as is your special the semi sealed. I personally would like to pressurise. However, we know what the problem is now and why the hydrogen is being produced, what the OP needs to do now is have a proper power flush and adequate inhibitor added. A power flush though is not a half hour job, its a day minimum and thats for small domestic dwellings. Once this has been carried out then the OP can consider how he approaches the outcome. Whatever method above choosen I would suggest a suitable filter for the system and appropriate means of air removal, free air, microbubbles and dissolved gases.
 
Combining them is one possibility, as is your special the semi sealed. I personally would like to pressurise. However, we know what the problem is now and why the hydrogen is being produced, what the OP needs to do now is have a proper power flush and adequate inhibitor added. A power flush though is not a half hour job, its a day minimum and thats for small domestic dwellings. Once this has been carried out then the OP can consider how he approaches the outcome. Whatever method above choosen I would suggest a suitable filter for the system and appropriate means of air removal, free air, microbubbles and dissolved gases.
Thank you very much guys
I will try out the suggestions asap.
I can confirm the pump is the correct way with arrow pointing towards the 2 port valves.
I'll update you on the little test suggested first then later on when I get the system flushed out etc.
Thanks again. 👍
 
To add to John's comment. Like he said the manual switch on motorised valves is primarily for filling and some two ports ie Honeywell the manual lever won't start the boiler. However if you take the head off and use a wooden peg you can close this circuit to bring the boiler and pump on. Ive never done it but remember an associate saying it could be done (allows you to bring boiler on if the programmer is not accessible, for whatever reason).

I suspect if the blockage is where we think it is then the pumping over will happen whenever HW or CH is shut down.
 
Just a quick related point:
I noticed the 15mm feed has a gate valve at pump and isolating valve at header tank.

1. When it comes to combining the vent and feed as has been suggested, does this mean I need a shut off valve at bottom also in addition to an isolating valve in loft to tank?

2. Does this also mean I when it comes to doing away with the 15mm feed I can simply shut off the gate valve or is that bad practice incase valve fails etc?

Thanks very much again!
 
If you're combining it there should be no valves in any vent pipe for obvious safety reasons. Come out of bottom of header tank in 22mm and tee into the vent, the vent then continues to rise up and over the header tank, with 450mm minimum between water cold fill line and top of vent u bend. You can then blank off where the old fill entered the system.
There are other options though as I said above but the primary job is getting the system cleaned.
 
To add to John's comment. Like he said the manual switch on motorised valves is primarily for filling and some two ports ie Honeywell the manual lever won't start the boiler. However if you take the head off and use a wooden peg you can close this circuit to bring the boiler and pump on. Ive never done it but remember an associate saying it could be done (allows you to bring boiler on if the programmer is not accessible, for whatever reason).

I suspect if the blockage is where we think it is then the pumping over will happen whenever HW or CH is shut down.
The pump over may not happen when one zone valve shuts as there is somewhere for the flow to go but would be another test to add
Just a quick related point:
I noticed the 15mm feed has a gate valve at pump and isolating valve at header tank.

1. When it comes to combining the vent and feed as has been suggested, does this mean I need a shut off valve at bottom also in addition to an isolating valve in loft to tank?

2. Does this also mean I when it comes to doing away with the 15mm feed I can simply shut off the gate valve or is that bad practice incase valve fails etc?

Thanks very much again!
Just shut the cold feed make up where it joins the vent.

You can also let the cold feed isol valve in place at the tank, just give it a good flush into a bucket before connecting up. You cannot have a isol valve where the cold feed also acts as the vent , ie no "vent"

Also T in the cold feed as close to the header tank and Vent as you can (see my set up)
 

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