Help appreciated for back boiler ventilation problem

[MAG]

Thanks P4ault - it's appreciated. Definitely a no go for the vent as they are refusing due to contractors report of "safe to use" despite NCS Vents and NSC Flue.

 

[MAG]

Oh and we've ordered a digital CO alarm tonight. It just angers me because I've got no written report saying it's safe after inspection so I've been left with the decision of turning it back on or having myself and baby freezing in the house over the weekend.

 

[P4ULT]

If you don't mind me asking how long have you lived there. If the landlord won't do it (tight sod) if it's been no problem for you then it should be ok although not an ideal situation.

 

[MAG]

No I don't mind at all. We've only been there about 5 months. It was AR when we moved in according to SG but we only found out after we had moved in, the contractor came out and said it was fine (again no paperwork) and then we got an AR notice again from SG. This house has so many issues and this is just the latest!!!

 

[MAG]

Oh and maybe a silly question here. Even though the appliance is old, if a new floor vent was put in in September should that have been ducted or is ducting only required if it's a new appliance?

 

[kirkgas]

Thanks P4ault - it's appreciated. Definitely a no go for the vent as they are refusing due to contractors report of "safe to use" despite NCS Vents and NSC Flue.

right, this is the way to go with it:
1 phone the letting agent and inform them you are contacting HSE via Gas Safe to reprt them for putting you and the baby at risk bt knowingly putting you at risk by putting you in a house with an AR siutation (THIS IS NOT TO BE DEBATED AND IS FACT, WHICH YOU CAN AND WILL PROVE NO PROBLEM), it isnt your fault the letting agent uses an incompetant as a subbie, also at this point advise him he is in direct violation of the Tenancy Act Scotland by not taking all reasonable steps to minimise risk to you, (when the problem was first advised to him he has a "resonable time" to effect repairs, he is way past that

2 contact the gas contractor and ask for an email address of the MD or most senior person, tell them you MUST get an email address as you intend to use the emails in the upcoming court case that you are about to instigate against the letting agent and the contractor,
communicate with ONLY the most senior person and ONLY by email, (they hate this and will be sweating by now!!!!)
once you email the big boss tell him/her in no uncertain terms that your lawyer has indicated that the contractors actions have contravened the 1998 GSI&U Regulations as they have been incompetant by improperly classifying NCS faults as defined in the IUP (Industry Unsafe Procedures) and as such have failed in their mandatory obligation to protect you. tell them as a Gas Safe Registered firm they have left themselves wide open to action by Gas Safe Inspector and to a lot of grief, and IF they would like to reinspect and classify as AR immediately which will push the letting agent to act as they must do then you may consider holding the lawyer back (although your lawyer has advised you that you have a very strong case for suing them) and to aveliate the stress and discomfort to you and the baby (and to ensure there is no lawyers letter at all meaning no claim) that in the position of most senior person of the company you are sure they have the authority to instruct an engineer to fire along to your property and fit a stadium black hole vent of a suitable size, and to do a spillage test on your appliance for a total cost of about £60 odd quid to the firm, then to get reimbursed by the landlord if they can, that you are sure they will agree £60 will be way less than a few rounds of lawyers letters and deffo way short of the manpower they will have to spend placating Gas Safe and again way less than the cost of ensuring their engineers actually know what they are doing (although they should consider doing this anyway)
right im not reading all that back cause i was on a mission there, but if you get the jist of it get into them, if not PM me and i will discuss it in detail, go down this route, be bold, dont waver and they will bottle it and someone will be round to sort it, its a no-brainer for them as the other costs will run into many £100's,
PS then tell the contactors boss you know a guy who will sort them out with some cheap refresher training for their guys as an inhouse project to ensure they dont get him in this position again ;-)

 

[kirkgas]

Oh and maybe a silly question here. Even though the appliance is old, if a new floor vent was put in in September should that have been ducted or is ducting only required if it's a new appliance?

age of appliance is not an issue, ducting is required if the vent communicates with more than one property, which can only be confirmed by lifting the floor and checking, which wont take long to do but to be fair to the contractor it isnt in their remit to start ripping up floors as the letting agent wont pay them for the work they are meant to be doing never mind extras
what area are you in?

 

[tamz]

THIS IS NOT TO BE DEBATED AND IS FACT, WHICH YOU CAN AND WILL PROVE NO PROBLEM

I really hate to disagree with you here Kirk BUT the escalation of 2 NCS's to AR is at the discretion and judgement of the engineer based on the past history of the operation of the appliance.
The vent is debatable and the NCS fluing (if it is a bbu) will at worst be sealing at catchment area of either pipe routes or the bottom of the flue. For the flueing to be given an ncs must mean it does not effect combustion. Is it really an AR? Who knows because none of us have actually seen it.

To the OP.
Get someone independent from the landlord or letting agency to come in and check and do a report in your favour and rectify as they see fit then claim it back from your landlord by deducting the bill from the rent.

OR smash a windy (joke) :smile:

 

[kirkgas]

I really hate to disagree with you here Kirk BUT the escalation of 2 NCS's to AR is at the discretion and judgement of the engineer based on the past history of the operation of the appliance.
The vent is debatable and the NCS fluing (if it is a bbu) will at worst be sealing at catchment area of either pipe routes or the bottom of the flue. For the flueing to be given an ncs must mean it does not effect combustion. Is it really an AR? Who knows because none of us have actually seen it.


To the OP.
Get someone independent from the landlord or letting agency to come in and check and do a report in your favour and rectify as they see fit then claim it back from your landlord by deducting the bill from the rent.



OR smash a windy (joke) :smile:

Tam, the bit im getting at is the letting agents contractor saying its safe, therefore giving the agent a get out clause, i re-read it and it was a bit of a manic rant haha

 

[tamz]

Tam, the bit im getting at is the letting agents contractor saying its safe, therefore giving the agent a get out clause,

That is the problem with using associated companies who "may" have the LL interests at heart. Best to get an independent to check and rectify. It's probably easier and quicker to fix than write out the paperwork.

We all like a wee rant now and again:whatchutalkingabout:lol:

 

[RabbitTwo]

agree with

agree with author good!

 

[MAG]

Kirkgas, your rant was inspirational and had me hopeful but then Tamz you come along and it's all ruined! Lol.

The vent was only put in in September so can a plumber fit it without ducting knowing that there is likely to be communication with another property as it is a mid-terrace property? Really what I'm asking is whether a plumber can go ahead and carry out work when they know it is NCS? Only reason why I ask is because it looks like this floor vent was fitted by the plumbers at the same time as they performed the initial gas inspection before I moved in and who have now told the LL the boiler is safe. To me, based on two conflicting reports the LL should be paying for a 3rd opinion so that he meets his legal obligations to keep the property gas safe.

I've emailed the letting agents today highlighting that it is inexpensive to fit a core vent and this is all that is required to bring the ventilation to a safe standard thus ensuring our safety, the safety of the property and reduce the likelihood of us receiving anymore SG At Risk Notices. If they choose not to do this, I'll get a second opinion. If the 3rd opinions states AR then I'll be consulting my solicitor as, like you say Kirkgas, we've been unknowingly living in a property with an AR boiler for the last 5 months.

It's really annoying because it is so cheap to do but then again this is the same LL who is refusing to give us emergency heating knowing full well we have no hot water or heating. :rant:

 

[kirkgas]

Kirkgas, your rant was inspirational and had me hopeful but then Tamz you come along and it's all ruined! Lol.

The vent was only put in in September so can a plumber fit it without ducting knowing that there is likely to be communication with another property as it is a mid-terrace property? Really what I'm asking is whether a plumber can go ahead and carry out work when they know it is NCS? Only reason why I ask is because it looks like this floor vent was fitted by the plumbers at the same time as they performed the initial gas inspection before I moved in and who have now told the LL the boiler is safe. To me, based on two conflicting reports the LL should be paying for a 3rd opinion so that he meets his legal obligations to keep the property gas safe.

I've emailed the letting agents today highlighting that it is inexpensive to fit a core vent and this is all that is required to bring the ventilation to a safe standard thus ensuring our safety, the safety of the property and reduce the likelihood of us receiving anymore SG At Risk Notices. If they choose not to do this, I'll get a second opinion. If the 3rd opinions states AR then I'll be consulting my solicitor as, like you say Kirkgas, we've been unknowingly living in a property with an AR boiler for the last 5 months.

It's really annoying because it is so cheap to do but then again this is the same LL who is refusing to give us emergency heating knowing full well we have no hot water or heating. :rant:

you want to squeeze the contractor who said it was safe and put you at risk, thats who my rant was focused on, those 2 NCS make it AR get onto them,what area are you in?

 

[MAG]

I'm in Glasgow.

Gas Safe are of the same opinion that based on the doubtful nature of the area under the house and lack of ducting the ventilation is NCS & with the already NCS Flue elevates it to AR - purely because they expect their engineers to air on the side of caution as SG have. However, at the same time, they've said that it is up to the engineers discretion.

They are still refusing to give me a copy of the report completed by the contractors on Thursday.

Should they have given this to me to off-set the AR by SG? They've sent me a copy of the report done in September and said that the contractors are sticking by this even though they phoned Gas Safe in front of me to and confirmed that the ventilation is NCS. The September Report doesn't state this.

Still no heating as want to wait on a 3rd opinion and my CO alarm coming through the post and can't sleep a wink through stressing over all of this. Baby is in bed wearing layers of clothes and I'm stressing that he could be too hot/ too cold. :icon9:

I think it's just hit home that I should really look into buying my own house rather than renting!

 

[kirkgas]

I'm in Glasgow.

Gas Safe are of the same opinion that based on the doubtful nature of the area under the house and lack of ducting the ventilation is NCS & with the already NCS Flue elevates it to AR - purely because they expect their engineers to air on the side of caution as SG have. However, at the same time, they've said that it is up to the engineers discretion.

They are still refusing to give me a copy of the report completed by the contractors on Thursday.

Should they have given this to me to off-set the AR by SG? They've sent me a copy of the report done in September and said that the contractors are sticking by this even though they phoned Gas Safe in front of me to and confirmed that the ventilation is NCS. The September Report doesn't state this.

Still no heating as want to wait on a 3rd opinion and my CO alarm coming through the post and can't sleep a wink through stressing over all of this. Baby is in bed wearing layers of clothes and I'm stressing that he could be too hot/ too cold. :icon9:

I think it's just hit home that I should really look into buying my own house rather than renting!

it still falls to the landlord to fix your prob via the letting agent, although they never seem to care much, i still think there is some mileage in squeezing the contractor who said it was safe as they clearly dont know what they are doing, do me a favour PM me with the name of the contractor who said it was safe, dont post it on the forum, you could pick up a CO alarm from B&Q or any plumbing electrical contractors, the bottom line is until it is checked out then AR is where we are and it is your choice whether to use it or not, and most of us advice a customer never to ignore AR, but there are some NCS's that wont be dangerous when added together, BUT you aint gonna get that advice from anyone as we need to err on the side of caution

 

[MAG]

So until I have a report from the contractor saying "Safe" then it's still AR? Even if I've verbally been told it's safe to use?

 

[MAG]

Sorry, the only reason why I ask is because the LL is still refusing to give me any form of heating as he believes the verbal confirmation of the contractor means that there is no longer an AR by SG. I know legally we are entitled to heating from when the AR notice is received but his response is that he dealt with it quickly and the contractor has said its safe so we have no right to heating at all.

 

[REDSAW]

some of my earliest memories are when we lived in a mid-terrace.
3 of us in a bed, no heating, frost on the inside of the windows, cold ears etc.
one xmas my dad bought us an electric wall mounted element heater that we were allowed to turn on until we fell asleep. i think i was about 4, my sister 6 my brother 2 years old.

how times have changed now with the dependance of gas central heating but i still cant afford the gas to run it.lol.

sorry i said that out load didnt i,..?

 

[MAG]

I could afford gas until I moved into said house with a back boiler. I nearly had a fit when my first bill came through. The lovely SG engineer who turned off my heating explained how inefficient and expensive they are so maybe he thought he was doing me a favour. Lol.

 

[Mike Jackson]

As far as I'm concerned you need something in writing from the contractor to say that the AR problem has been rectified and the issue is now NCS. The fact that they seem unwilling to do so rings alarm bells for me. Every bit of gas work that I do is accompanied by a form stating what I have done. 2 weeks ago I turned a boiler off due to a flue problem, I issued a warning notice and labelled the boiler as AR. Last week I returned and ran a new flue for it, as well as turning it back on I issued a certificate stating what action I had taken to make it safe to use again.

It's all about covering your backside to me and if someone is not willing to put a statement in writing then there must be some doubt. If there is doubt the sensible thing is to err on the side of caution.

 

[MAG]

Agreed. I don't know if they are refusing to give a written report because they missed the NCS ventilation in September 2011 and in November 2011 and/or they've fitted the floor vent in September 2011 knowing it to be NCS.

In my mind, without this most recent report the situation is still AR regardless of the LL conveniently believing that their contractor is in the right.

Will need to phone Gas Safe tomorrow to check if the contractors are required under regulations to supply me with a report of their findings and if they can tell me categorically that without it we are still AR. Poor guys are going to be sick of me!

Also, a technical question here! When taking into account ventilation requirements is it only the floor vent and outdoor vents of the room concerned that is taken into consideration? Or can the engineer take every outdoor vent around the house into consideration.

 

[kirkgas]

Agreed. I don't know if they are refusing to give a written report because they missed the NCS ventilation in September 2011 and in November 2011 and/or they've fitted the floor vent in September 2011 knowing it to be NCS.

In my mind, without this most recent report the situation is still AR regardless of the LL conveniently believing that their contractor is in the right.

Will need to phone Gas Safe tomorrow to check if the contractors are required under regulations to supply me with a report of their findings and if they can tell me categorically that without it we are still AR. Poor guys are going to be sick of me!

Also, a technical question here! When taking into account ventilation requirements is it only the floor vent and outdoor vents of the room concerned that is taken into consideration? Or can the engineer take every outdoor vent around the house into consideration.

you can only use ventilation that has a path to the boiler, direct from the same room is best as its less likely to be compromised, however indirect ventilation through another room(s) can be used if properly fitted,
re the current situation, verbal advice means nothing, you r landlord is trying to be fly by using that as an excuse to save the money, you need to start playing hard ball and demand some immediate action, first with the letting agent then as i had said before pressure on the contractor who said it was safe, they will/should be jittery if they know you are going legal/GSR with it (but i can guarantee you the letting agent will drop the contractor who said it was safe right in the doo-doo with GSR by saying "oh sorry i didnt know it was AR cause my contractor told me it was safe") a point you shouldnt miss when you speak to the contractor, play them against each other, and if the contractor thinks he will take a hit from GSR for mis-classifying (and he will) then he might fix it for you
good luck

 

[missplumb]

another issue to take into consideration with the outside air bricks is that they are also there to ventilate the floor to prevent the timber joists from damp and rotting. If we started ducting the vents straight up to the floor vents then it could cause other problems. As has been said, the stadium vent is the quickest and easiest way to sort it. Hope you get something sorted out quickly.

 

[MAG]

Morning. Just to let you know I've spoken to Gas Safe this morning and they've confirmed the following.

Contractor should be giving me decision in writing to negate the AG by SG
Floor vent fitted in September 2011 should never have been fitted without ducting.
Contractor should have noted this to be NCS when doing their GSIR and in their November visit
Only 2 vents under the window can be relied upon as there is no proven direct pathway to the boiler from the other 3 vents.

He said I should put a complaint in and the local inspector will contact me. Think this is the only way forward as neither the letting agent or contractor are budging.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

good this is just what you need. hopefully things will start moving now and the contractors get a rocket up the you know what.