Hot water venting into header tank, this issue not covered on previous posts

[karlrich1]

Hi all, I'm new to this forum, I apologise if I miss any protocols

My issue on the face of it has been covered many times, but specifically in this instance it makes no sense and I have not yet found a reasonable answer, if you can help it would be very much appreciated.

I have an open vented CH/HW system. For some time there has been a reasonable trickle of hot water being emptied into the header tank via the vent. The pipework is installed correctly, the vent and the cold feed are less than 150mm apart, and in the right sequence from the boiler outlet.

What makes no sense to me as that this ONLY happens when the HW is demanded of the boiler and the Y valve is set to provide both CH and HW. if there is NO demand for HW then the vent remains dry (CH on full tilt)

Given that when there is a demand for both HW and CH the water has more pipework to flow around and therefore the pressure should be reduced, therefore making the overflow LESS likely, So why is this happening?

I have carried out many power flushes, treatments of all kinds - today I have bled the system right down after 2 days of sentinel 800 and still the problem persists.

It happens on pump speed of 2 or 3, and my vent pipe is the correct height above the header tank.

Thanks.

 

[John.g]

If the magnetic filter was installed before or during the new boiler install then one might think that the Hx is OK.
You say that the pump impeller was renewed a year ago, was a whole new pump installed or just the pump head/impeller? if you found a reasonable build up in the pump ports then I would still remove the head and inspect/clean the impeller, its not a big job if the isol valves are holding.

 

[karlrich1]

If the magnetic filter was installed before or during the new boiler install then one might think that the Hx is OK.
You say that the pump impeller was renewed a year ago, was a whole new pump installed or just the pump head/impeller? if you found a reasonable build up in the pump ports then I would still remove the head and inspect/clean the impeller, its not a big job if the isol valves are holding.

yeah the magnaclean was fitted before my last boiler - fingers crossed that has done the job. As of now the system is sat happily on pump speed 2, 70 deg rad temp and everything hot aside from the bathroom rad. So I think the HX is ok.

Yes just the head was changed last year - I may have a go at that then tomorrow, when I removed the head it wasn't instantly clear to me how I got to the impeller - i'll have to have a look. My isolation valves are old - I may have to drain down again......

 

[John.g]

Your photo shows gate (wheel) valves so should be OK for isolation as you can tighten down on the glands if they (glands) leak but if the system is operating OK now on speed 2? or are you still getting problems with boiler tripping on o/heat on start up from cold. Don't know how your boiler operates but some now measure the delta T across the heat exchanger and if its greater > 30C will trip the boiler irrespective of the flow temperature.
If you have a ABV fitted ensure its index setting is correct.

 

[karlrich1]

Your photo shows gate (wheel) valves so should be OK for isolation as you can tighten down on the glands if they (glands) leak but if the system is operating OK now on speed 2? or are you still getting problems with boiler tripping on o/heat on start up from cold. Don't know how your boiler operates but some now measure the delta T across the heat exchanger and if its greater > 30C will trip the boiler irrespective of the flow temperature.
If you have a ABV fitted ensure its index setting is correct.

System operating ok on pump speed 2 aside from the one cold rad.... I'll see what it does in the morning from cold - but right now it's at steady state. I'm pretty sure I don't have an ABV fitted......

Yes that's what happens - the current temp rises too quickly in relation to the circulating water, I would say it is set to around 30 deg looking at when it trips out yes.

Some pics attached of the state of the blockage and the pump housing.

 

[John.g]

I would definitely be of the opinion that if the pump head/impeller was installed during this build up that the impeller eye/vanes could be some what occluded, I include a picture of my 18 year old Salmson pump head which was still running perfectly after 18 years and is still in spotless condition used in a vented system (with the odd drop of inhibitor thrown in) so when/if you remove the pump head you should be able to see the impeller and make sure and clean out any deposits between the vanes and also the impeller eye.
Don,t know what your boiler output is but assuming a maximum deltaT of 25C then 15kw needs a circ flow of 8.6 LPM, 20kw 11.5 LPM, 25 kw 14.3 LPM and 30 kw 17.2 LPM, all at full firing.
If you have a UPS2 6M (60) pump running on speed2 which makes it a 5M pump and if you look at the pump curves or confirm that it is a ups 2 then if CH only on from cold that it might be a bit of a struggle to circulate enough water to keep the temp at 25C with anything bigger than a 20kw boiler but if you can also (first thing in the mornings) have both CH & HW on together until the boiler cuts out normally at its setpoint temperature (say 30 minutes or so) then one would expect plenty of circulation.
[automerge]1574112179[/automerge]
A view of the impeller eye (not a great photo)

 

[karlrich1]

I would definitely be of the opinion that if the pump head/impeller was installed during this build up that the impeller eye/vanes could be some what occluded, I include a picture of my 18 year old Salmson pump head which was still running perfectly after 18 years and is still in spotless condition used in a vented system (with the odd drop of inhibitor thrown in) so when/if you remove the pump head you should be able to see the impeller and make sure and clean out any deposits between the vanes and also the impeller eye.
Don,t know what your boiler output is but assuming a maximum deltaT of 25C then 15kw needs a circ flow of 8.6 LPM, 20kw 11.5 LPM, 25 kw 14.3 LPM and 30 kw 17.2 LPM, all at full firing.
If you have a UPS2 6M (60) pump running on speed2 which makes it a 5M pump and if you look at the pump curves or confirm that it is a ups 2 then if CH only on from cold that it might be a bit of a struggle to circulate enough water to keep the temp at 25C with anything bigger than a 20kw boiler but if you can also (first thing in the mornings) have both CH & HW on together until the boiler cuts out normally at its setpoint temperature (say 30 minutes or so) then one would expect plenty of circulation.
[automerge]1574112179[/automerge]
A view of the impeller eye (not a great photo)

That's clean for 18 years! I will give the impeller some TLC.

This morning the house seemed to heat up ok all aside from that one rad again. The boiler trips out most often with overshoot I think - if the current temp exceeds the target by more than 5 deg it shuts down for a few mins.

The boiler is an 18KW unit, I have rated it down using a diagnostic command to 11Kw as I only have 9 radiators and I thought if it is putting less energy into the water it will not trip up so often. the temp increase should be steadier.... The pump is a UPS2.

 

[John.g]

OK then, a few calcs might show something. a 11 kw boiler deltaT of 20C equals to a circulation flow of 8 LPM which the ups2 will provide at a 5m head with a clean impeller and I would be surprised if the flowrate was less than this but will use it as a worst case. Now if we also assume that your rad system contents+boiler are 50 Litres (worst minimum case again) then if the boiler set point is 70C once the water contents reach 50C return then the boiler should start modulating down as the deltaT through the boiler is 20C and 50+20 = 70C. So assuming a "cold" water start up temp of 20c it should take ~ 16 mins (but probably 20 mins or so because the rads will be emitting heat) for the boiler to reach its modulation temperature of 70C. If one assumes that the rads are emitting a minimum of 7 kw then the boiler has a net input of (11-7), 4 kw, to heat the 50 litres from 70C to 75C if one assumes that the modulation is very sluggish. It would take a minimum of 4.4 minutes to achieve this and boiler cut out, one would think that even this worst case of 4.4 minutes should be ample time for the boiler to modulate down? and assuming a turn down ratio of 4:1 then the 18 kw rated boiler should have a max turn down to 4.5 kwh and continue to fire as the demand is > this at ~ 7 kw.
My daughter has a Vokera vision 20S that is not range rated, I watched it a few years ago when it fired up from cold to only one zone with only 3 rads on it and it came up to its setpoint temp of 70C in a "frightening" time of < 5 minutes but only overshot the setpoint by 1C before it reached its modulated requirement., as far as I can recall it actually started modulating shortly before it reached the set point.

Apoligies for all the sums but its the only way I can figure these things out so does this point to a (still) circulation problem or a fouled Hx or a sluggish boiler modulation problem?, its a new boiler so one would think unlikely control problem but one never knows.

Re the cold rad, have you tried venting it with boiler+pump off and with the vent completely removed. Also if you know which pipe is the flow, you could try venting with the boiler/pump on and flow v/v open with return closed and vent completely removed. But no doubt you probably have tried all these knacks,

 

[karlrich1]

OK then, a few calcs might show something. a 11 kw boiler deltaT of 20C equals to a circulation flow of 8 LPM which the ups2 will provide at a 5m head with a clean impeller and I would be surprised if the flowrate was less than this but will use it as a worst case. Now if we also assume that your rad system contents+boiler are 50 Litres (worst minimum case again) then if the boiler set point is 70C once the water contents reach 50C return then the boiler should start modulating down as the deltaT through the boiler is 20C and 50+20 = 70C. So assuming a "cold" water start up temp of 20c it should take ~ 16 mins (but probably 20 mins or so because the rads will be emitting heat) for the boiler to reach its modulation temperature of 70C. If one assumes that the rads are emitting a minimum of 7 kw then the boiler has a net input of (11-7), 5 kw, to heat the 50 litres from 70C to 75C if one assumes that the modulation is very sluggish. It would take a minimum of 3.5 minutes to achieve this and boiler cut out, one would think that even this worst case of 3.5 minutes should be ample time for the boiler to modulate down? and assuming a turn down ratio of 4:1 then the 18 kw rated boiler should have a max turn down to 4.5 kwh and continue to fire as the demand is > this at ~ 7 kw.
My daughter has a Vokera vision 20S that is not range rated, I watched it a few years ago when it fired up from cold to only one zone with only 3 rads on it and it came up to its setpoint temp of 70C in a "frightening" time of < 5 minutes but only overshot the setpoint by 1C before it reached its modulated requirement., as far as I can recall it actually started modulating shortly before it reached the set point.

Apoligies for all the sums but its the only way I can figure these things out so does this point to a (still) circulation problem or a fouled Hx or a sluggish boiler modulation problem?, its a new boiler so one would think unlikely control problem but one never knows.

Re the cold rad, have you tried venting it with boiler+pump off and with the vent completely removed. Also if you know which pipe is the flow, you could try venting with the boiler/pump on and flow v/v open with return closed and vent completely removed. But no doubt you probably have tried all these knacks,

Thanks John, for all of your efforts with this, they are appreciated.

The sums make a fair amount of sense, there is a modulation that starts on first heat up just before it reaches set point, but as I mentioned earlier, often the temp overshoots by 5 deg and triggers a 'cut out and wait function' If the 5 deg overshoot doesn't happen then the modulation seems to work ok. This happens on pump speed 2 for example whereas with pump speed 1 the boiler was always overshooting by >5 deg on any heat cycle so it didn't settle to being able to modulate.

So I still think it's a circulation problem.... giving the boiler the benefit of the doubt.

The cold rad bleeds perfectly well under gravity, and drains down ok. There is no air in it at all and both valves are fully open to try to provide a flow path of least resistance. The feed pipe to the rad gets as hot as the rest of the system very quickly, but the rad stays cold just north of the inlet valve. Which suggested to me a dodgy valve or a blockage at the rad inlet, but eventually (probably an hour later) the rad then does heat up very slowly - so there MUST be SOME circulation there somehow. I will try siphoning off some water from the bleed screw with the inlet open and the outlet closed to see if I get any better flow and heat ingress.

 

[John.g]

Yes, probably well worth inspecting the pump impeller to rule it in/out for ever.
One quite accurate way of measuring the flow rate even though a PITA is to measure the pump power in watts (assuming you have the smart ups2) if you have one of those cheap energy monitors you can put (temporarily) a 3 pin plug on the pump lead and just plug it into a extension lead and then run the boiler as normal for a few minutes. If the power is > 35w on speed 2 change to speed 1 and if this power is > 23w change to PP3 mode and write down the power required. If the power is < 35W on speed2 or < 23W on speed1 you can just read the flow off the pump curves in the manual, if you have to run on PP3 for a few minutes just post the power output and I can calculate the head/flow. Some of these pumps now including one version of the UPS2 alpha 3 actually show the flowrate, my own one, a Wilo Yonos Pico 6m displays the power and its very easy to read the flowrate off its pump curves.

 

[karlrich1]

Still very odd - I can easily draw water out of the dodgy rad with either inlet or outlet closed and the boiler and pump running. Still the rad doesn't get hot. So it must be serviceable through gravity from the header tank, but not via the CH pump..... can't get my head around that yet, water just doesn't want to flow in that part of the circuit, and yet the inlet pipe gets proper hot....

I have a smart energy meter (not a smart ups2) and noted the following power consumption for each pump speed:-

1 = 26W
2 = 37W
3 = 50W
[automerge]1574280121[/automerge]

 

[John.g]

Thanks, it could be looking good from a flow point of view, on speed 2 its flowing = or > 0.55 m3/hr (9 LPM), but because its running at full power (on any of the 3 settings) one can't see exactly where on the curve its running because the power is flat lining and that's why I asked you to put it on PP3 which should be within its power line and i can derive the flow from that for constant speed curve 2. I think you just press and hold the setting button for 5 secs until you get a flashing green LED and then set it on PP3 and post the power and return it back to constant speed 2 after.

Will have a think later re rad.
[automerge]1574279373[/automerge]
OK I have done the calcs based on running on PP3, and from the power reading you can get a fair idea of what the flow rate will be when constant speed 2 is re selected. If your reading is ~ 18W then your system is reasonably OK, my own system flows ~ 14 LPM @ 4M head with CH (10 rads) only on.

12W 9.2 LPM @ 5M
14W 12.5 LPM @ 4.5M
18w 15.8 LPM @ 4M
22W 20 LPM @ 3.5m
25W 25 LPM @ 3M.

 

[karlrich1]

Ah yes my pump is not that clever, I can't get that information from it - only change the pump speed.

 

[John.g]

So there is no push button on it so???.
I was wondering why you said it wasn't smart... I thought all A rated UPS 2 had at least 3 PP settings as well as three fixed speed. A pity because you don't know how far down the curve that the pump is running on except to say for sure that you are pumping a minimum of 0.55 m3/h ( 9.2 LPM) @ 5m, the only other thing I can suggest is to measure the power on CH only then HW only and then CH&HW, if the power is still on max on all three tests then one might think that a minimum of 9 LPM should still satisfy the boiler under all conditions and its more than likely that its pumping more than this.

This is the replacement head I have seen on one neighbours recently.

 

[karlrich1]

So there is no push button on it so???.
I was wondering why you said it wasn't smart... I thought all A rated UPS 2 had at least 3 PP settings as well as three fixed speed. A pity because you don't know how far down the curve that the pump is running on except to say for sure that you are pumping a minimum of 0.55 m3/h ( 9.2 LPM) @ 5m, the only other thing I can suggest is to measure the power on CH only then HW only and then CH&HW, if the power is still on max on all three tests then one might think that a minimum of 9 LPM should still satisfy the boiler under all conditions and its more than likely that its pumping more than this.

This is the replacement head I have seen on one neighbours recently.

I'm an idiot. Sorry.

I thought it needed a separate display to be 'smart'

The same button exists on mine to be able to change the fixed speeds. If I hold the button for 5 secs the green light flashes on whatever fixed speed setting you had selected, single presses then cycles through each speed but the green light is now flashing rather than solid.

When the plumber came a year ago to replace the head he left no documentation regarding the pump at all, so I just thought it had three fixed speed settings!

So that said - I assuming a flashing green light on speed 3 = PP3 and at steady state when the CH is on, I need to record how many watts that is using on my smart meter?

 

[John.g]

I'm an idiot. Sorry.

I thought it needed a separate display to be 'smart'

The same button exists on mine to be able to change the fixed speeds. If I hold the button for 5 secs the green light flashes on whatever fixed speed setting you had selected, single presses then cycles through each speed but the green light is now flashing rather than solid.

When the plumber came a year ago to replace the head he left no documentation regarding the pump at all, so I just thought it had three fixed speed settings!

So that said - I assuming a flashing green light on speed 3 = PP3 and at steady state when the CH is on, I need to record how many watts that is using on my smart meter?

That's it and for interest you might try it on CH, HW & HWplusCH. (On PP3 mode, top green light flashing)) it should make for interesting reading.
[automerge]1574338174[/automerge]
Just to be clear again after you keep that button depressed for >5 secs the led will start flashing you can then change to PP1 orPP2 or PP3 , I 'm only interested in PP3 mode, top green light flashing. Switch back to fixed speed (solid green light and FS2 selected. (a solid,second green light)
It's explained far better in the UPS2 file that I attached in a previous post.
[automerge]1574338527[/automerge]

That's it and for interest you might try it on CH, HW & HWplusCH. (On PP3 mode) it should make for interesting reading.
[automerge]1574338174[/automerge]
Just to be clear again after you keep that button depressed for >5 secs the led will flash you can then change to PP1 orPP2 or PP3 , I 'm only interested in PP3. Then switch back to fixed speed (solid green light and FS2 selected. And second light illuminated)
It's explained far better in the UPS2 file that I attached in a previous post.

 

[karlrich1]

That's it and for interest you might try it on CH, HW & HWplusCH. (On PP3 mode, top green light flashing)) it should make for interesting reading.
[automerge]1574338174[/automerge]
Just to be clear again after you keep that button depressed for >5 secs the led will start flashing you can then change to PP1 orPP2 or PP3 , I 'm only interested in PP3 mode, top green light flashing. Switch back to fixed speed (solid green light and FS2 selected. (a solid,second green light)
It's explained far better in the UPS2 file that I attached in a previous post.
[automerge]1574338527[/automerge]

OK:-

PP3 pump mode - CH on only from cold start up, the pump used 165W, which as the temperature rose went down after about 20 mins to 13W. Turn on the HW in addition and the steady state was around 9W. Turn off the CH (so now HW only) and it was still around 9W.

During all of this the pump was running far slower than on fixed speed. When the HW was ON the outlet coil to the return from the tank never got hot.... suggesting that was too slow, and the rads took a long while to heat.

I then switched to fixed speed 2 with both CH and HW on and the pump ran at around 42W.

Having never known I had a PP function on my pump - should this be what I ought to run on to save energy?

 

[John.g]

OK then... 16.5W on PP3 equals a flow of ~ 10.5 LPM @ 1.8M, and on your selected fixed speed 2 (5M) equals a flow of 15.8 LPM @ 4M and that IMO is quite satisfactory and will give a deltaT of only 10C across a 11 kw boiler and even if you ran the boiler at 18 kw would result in a deltaT of 16.3C so there really should be no issues with the boiler controls under any of the above conditions.
The 9W on PP3 equals a flowrate of ~ 7.5LPM @ 1.5M which should equals a flowrate of 12.9 LPM @ 4.5M on your selected fixed speed 2 (5M).

PP mode does save a nice bit of power, in my case (14W vs 21W) on a 4M PP setting but unfortunately the UPS2 is one of the poorest choices for PP control as it just doesn't provide a high enough head setting, the 3 settings are 3.0M,2.8M and 2.6M and any pump should be able to provide a PP setting of at least 4.0 to 5.0M to give adequate flow as ideally one wants a PP setting high enough to give you the required flow with everything opened up, it will then throttle back as TRVs or zone valves are closed, ironically, if you had a PP setting of 4.5M on the UPS2 then you would get exactly your required initial flow of 15.8 LPM @ 4M instead of the "miserable" flow of 10.5 LPM @ 1.8M. Granted, the UPS2 PP settings will work where you have a very low loss system or where you might use zone pumps instead of zone valves.
[automerge]1574413134[/automerge]
Jut looking at your results there again, it's a bit strange that you are getting only 9W on PP3 with both HW only on and (9W) HW+CH on together especially since you are getting 13/16W on CH only.
If you get the time (and inclination) you might just take the PP3 reading and the F.speed setting 2 readings with HW only on.

 

[RoryD]

Hi all, I'm new to this forum, I apologise if I miss any protocols

My issue on the face of it has been covered many times, but specifically in this instance it makes no sense and I have not yet found a reasonable answer, if you can help it would be very much appreciated.

I have an open vented CH/HW system. For some time there has been a reasonable trickle of hot water being emptied into the header tank via the vent. The pipework is installed correctly, the vent and the cold feed are less than 150mm apart, and in the right sequence from the boiler outlet.

What makes no sense to me as that this ONLY happens when the HW is demanded of the boiler and the Y valve is set to provide both CH and HW. if there is NO demand for HW then the vent remains dry (CH on full tilt)

Given that when there is a demand for both HW and CH the water has more pipework to flow around and therefore the pressure should be reduced, therefore making the overflow LESS likely, So why is this happening?

I have carried out many power flushes, treatments of all kinds - today I have bled the system right down after 2 days of sentinel 800 and still the problem persists.

It happens on pump speed of 2 or 3, and my vent pipe is the correct height above the header tank.

Thanks.

If I'm seeing your pics correctly, I'd say it is NOT configured correctly. Without running along the horizontal before attaching cf and vent pipes can cause this problem. Fit an air separator instead. As sludge begins to build up flow does get restricted.

 

[John.g]

OK then... 16.5W on PP3 equals a flow of ~ 10.5 LPM @ 1.8M, and on your selected fixed speed 2 (5M) equals a flow of 15.8 LPM @ 4M and that IMO is quite satisfactory and will give a deltaT of only 10C across a 11 kw boiler and even if you ran the boiler at 18 kw would result in a deltaT of 16.3C so there really should be no issues with the boiler controls under any of the above conditions.
The 9W on PP3 equals a flowrate of ~ 7.5LPM @ 1.5M which should equals a flowrate of 12.9 LPM @ 4.5M on your selected fixed speed 2 (5M).

PP mode does save a nice bit of power, in my case (14W vs 21W) on a 4M PP setting but unfortunately the UPS2 is one of the poorest choices for PP control as it just doesn't provide a high enough head setting, the 3 settings are 3.0M,2.8M and 2.6M and any pump should be able to provide a PP setting of at least 4.0 to 5.0M to give adequate flow as ideally one wants a PP setting high enough to give you the required flow with everything opened up, it will then throttle back as TRVs or zone valves are closed, ironically, if you had a PP setting of 4.5M on the UPS2 then you would get exactly your required initial flow of 15.8 LPM @ 4M instead of the "miserable" flow of 10.5 LPM @ 1.8M. Granted, the UPS2 PP settings will work where you have a very low loss system or where you might use zone pumps instead of zone valves.
[automerge]1574413134[/automerge]
Jut looking at your results there again, it's a bit strange that you are getting only 9W on PP3 with both HW only on and (9W) HW+CH on together especially since you are getting 13/16W on CH only.
If you get the time (and inclination) you might just take the PP3 reading and the F.speed setting 2 readings with HW only on.

Any update on your settings now and is the system OK?.