K
Kaz1111
Downstairs rads suddenly cold from about a week ago.
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Discuss Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power flus in the Air Sourced Heat Pumps area at Plumbers Forums
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
We had a similar problem this week, from what most here are saying the pump is playing a vital part in the problem.
That wasn't the case for us, the rads that were not working needed new valves. They were 35 years old though and had never been touched since new. Changed valves, refilled and every radiator was piping hot.
We had a similar problem this week, from what most here are saying the pump is playing a vital part in the problem.
That wasn't the case for us, the rads that were not working needed new valves. They were 35 years old though and had never been touched since new. Changed valves, refilled and every radiator was piping hot.
W
Whyme
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
I know its late in the thread to reply but a 15/60 pump is a meaty pump which should move it round BUT like all others say there shouldnt be any reason to fit an external pump, if the boiler has one ( unless its a massive house and youve got low loss headers etc). The best course of action is like above replace internal boiler pump and get a good word of mouth firm or plumber to spend a day properly treating, flushing and cleansing ur system...good luck.
I know its late in the thread to reply but a 15/60 pump is a meaty pump which should move it round BUT like all others say there shouldnt be any reason to fit an external pump, if the boiler has one ( unless its a massive house and youve got low loss headers etc). The best course of action is like above replace internal boiler pump and get a good word of mouth firm or plumber to spend a day properly treating, flushing and cleansing ur system...good luck.
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- 67
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Usually older heat only ones don't have the pump, newer ones does have (especially combis). Extra pump probably was fitted to increase the preassure and push water through the blockage.
It looks like there is a VERY SERIOUS restriction(s) of the flow in the system. The chemicals used before the powerflush had loosened a few clumps of sludge, which had probably blocked the orifice... It may be in/near the pump, gate valves, boiler, its heat exchanger, sludged up droppers, anywhere (but I would suspect the main circuit first, since the boiler is cycling). You need to get yourself a Good Professional (Like user Bunker or most others on this forum)) or Good Hobby plumber (DIYer who had worked with radiators AND plumbing before, and his family/friends were pleased with his work), who is ready to spend at least 1-2 FULL DAYS overhauling the WHOLE system. He will need a hand with radiators (very likely), so have one more strong lad available.- Check the flow resistance trough each system part, flush EACH dropper/radiator INDIVIDUALLY/DIRECTLY, remove the radiator/gate valves, if there is lack of good flow. Also you'll want someone, who is ready to replace parts of piping, if they are still restricted...
Read/print this: (http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/c...olution-how-do-proper-cheap-job-yourself.html), to give you some idea of the proper (after)flush, and don't leave the job unattended. If done by pro - the protocol can be varied, but still should be done THROUGHLY. The flusher connection to ONLY RADIATOR won't cut it...
If they have a power flush machine - attach it instead of the Pump, to the boiler, coil (if you've got one) and EACH dropper pair and also each radiator directly, and flush untill clear...
Do fit good magnetic filter to the boiler return at the end (may go instead of the secondary pump, if the boiler has one.
Before taking everything to bits, you can try listening for the water noise, when the pump or flusher is running - it may pinpoint the location of the blockage - noise is similar to half open tap or toilet cistern fill up (esp near the end). If it's sludge blockage, it may not be audible (longer orifice).
Usually older heat only ones don't have the pump, newer ones does have (especially combis). Extra pump probably was fitted to increase the preassure and push water through the blockage.
It looks like there is a VERY SERIOUS restriction(s) of the flow in the system. The chemicals used before the powerflush had loosened a few clumps of sludge, which had probably blocked the orifice... It may be in/near the pump, gate valves, boiler, its heat exchanger, sludged up droppers, anywhere (but I would suspect the main circuit first, since the boiler is cycling). You need to get yourself a Good Professional (Like user Bunker or most others on this forum)) or Good Hobby plumber (DIYer who had worked with radiators AND plumbing before, and his family/friends were pleased with his work), who is ready to spend at least 1-2 FULL DAYS overhauling the WHOLE system. He will need a hand with radiators (very likely), so have one more strong lad available.- Check the flow resistance trough each system part, flush EACH dropper/radiator INDIVIDUALLY/DIRECTLY, remove the radiator/gate valves, if there is lack of good flow. Also you'll want someone, who is ready to replace parts of piping, if they are still restricted...
Read/print this: (http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/c...olution-how-do-proper-cheap-job-yourself.html), to give you some idea of the proper (after)flush, and don't leave the job unattended. If done by pro - the protocol can be varied, but still should be done THROUGHLY. The flusher connection to ONLY RADIATOR won't cut it...
If they have a power flush machine - attach it instead of the Pump, to the boiler, coil (if you've got one) and EACH dropper pair and also each radiator directly, and flush untill clear...
Do fit good magnetic filter to the boiler return at the end (may go instead of the secondary pump, if the boiler has one.
Before taking everything to bits, you can try listening for the water noise, when the pump or flusher is running - it may pinpoint the location of the blockage - noise is similar to half open tap or toilet cistern fill up (esp near the end). If it's sludge blockage, it may not be audible (longer orifice).
K
Kaz1111
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Once again, thank you to everyone who has replied. Your advice has been invaluable.
So seems our best course of action is to remove grundfos pump and replace boiler pump. Then put on a magna clens? BUT first remove sludge/blockage ... Otherwise problem will remain?
i have read Bronze Tap's explanation of power flush, thank you. Not something I think I could attempt but is the best way to find blockage then to remove all the rads and flush through with water, wont blockage be more likely in pipes? and also read that perhaps power flush should not just have been done from hall radiator.
Should machine be attached to each rad to try to clear blockage/sludge? is there a certain protocol to be followed by heating engineers or is each 'problem' blockage treated differently? I have also taken on board the comment that power flushes are to clean system and not actually remove blockages...
Finally ... I am so sorry that this has turned into War and Peace ... And is there anyone in North Kent/SE London that could come and sort this out for me or recommend someone
Once again, thank you to everyone who has replied. Your advice has been invaluable.
So seems our best course of action is to remove grundfos pump and replace boiler pump. Then put on a magna clens? BUT first remove sludge/blockage ... Otherwise problem will remain?
i have read Bronze Tap's explanation of power flush, thank you. Not something I think I could attempt but is the best way to find blockage then to remove all the rads and flush through with water, wont blockage be more likely in pipes? and also read that perhaps power flush should not just have been done from hall radiator.
Should machine be attached to each rad to try to clear blockage/sludge? is there a certain protocol to be followed by heating engineers or is each 'problem' blockage treated differently? I have also taken on board the comment that power flushes are to clean system and not actually remove blockages...
Finally ... I am so sorry that this has turned into War and Peace ... And is there anyone in North Kent/SE London that could come and sort this out for me or recommend someone
K
Kaz1111
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
well, sorry guys, I am back again!
new pump fitted to boiler today, pump in upstairs airing cupboard has been decommissioned (still in place, electrical supply cut off). Has not cured the oroblem, no change at all. We will now be going into our third week of no heating and £550 lighter! engineer said he has put some 'chemical' into system (I was on phone at time, have a relative seriously I'll in hospital, and he spoke to my partner). He has said run the system for a couple of weeks with the chemical in it ... Said after that he will have to get under floorboards and check pipe work. We have oak flooring over floorboards so he will have to get in from living room where there is carpet only over original floorboards.
Incidentally we have now noticed that when hot water only is on, the radiator in the bedroom next to airing cupboard s piping hot plus the one in the next bedroom ... He said this is strange, but they are unlikely to be fed from hot water system (then why are they boiling hot?)
Also when hot water is on temp on boiler stays constant. When heating is on temp fluctuates all the time.
Heating wen on at 1.20 pm today, changing over from hot water being on. emp on boiler went down immed fro 76 to 46 .... At 1.43 pm it read 44' 1.47 pm - 74, 1.51 - 48, 1.52 - 70, 1.53 - 76. Is this normal, should it be fluctuating like this all the time?
I am just about At the end of my tether, two kids and the coldest March since 1963 ...
I did suggest taking rads off and flushing through .. He said if a blockage more likely to be in pipe work than rads ...
well, sorry guys, I am back again!
new pump fitted to boiler today, pump in upstairs airing cupboard has been decommissioned (still in place, electrical supply cut off). Has not cured the oroblem, no change at all. We will now be going into our third week of no heating and £550 lighter! engineer said he has put some 'chemical' into system (I was on phone at time, have a relative seriously I'll in hospital, and he spoke to my partner). He has said run the system for a couple of weeks with the chemical in it ... Said after that he will have to get under floorboards and check pipe work. We have oak flooring over floorboards so he will have to get in from living room where there is carpet only over original floorboards.
Incidentally we have now noticed that when hot water only is on, the radiator in the bedroom next to airing cupboard s piping hot plus the one in the next bedroom ... He said this is strange, but they are unlikely to be fed from hot water system (then why are they boiling hot?)
Also when hot water is on temp on boiler stays constant. When heating is on temp fluctuates all the time.
Heating wen on at 1.20 pm today, changing over from hot water being on. emp on boiler went down immed fro 76 to 46 .... At 1.43 pm it read 44' 1.47 pm - 74, 1.51 - 48, 1.52 - 70, 1.53 - 76. Is this normal, should it be fluctuating like this all the time?
I am just about At the end of my tether, two kids and the coldest March since 1963 ...
I did suggest taking rads off and flushing through .. He said if a blockage more likely to be in pipe work than rads ...
- Messages
- 1,031
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Kaz they need to take out the second pump completly as just disconnecting it will leave a smaller waterways going through which wont help your problem. I had one like this the other day which turned out to be the ball on 2-port valve had expanded so valve was opening electrically but not actually opening the waterways. Either that or its a blocked return on the heating would be my guess.
Kaz they need to take out the second pump completly as just disconnecting it will leave a smaller waterways going through which wont help your problem. I had one like this the other day which turned out to be the ball on 2-port valve had expanded so valve was opening electrically but not actually opening the waterways. Either that or its a blocked return on the heating would be my guess.
K
Kaz1111
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Thanks Phoenix Services. I did if pump should be taken out which he said he would do initially and put a piece of pipe in to replace it but then said disconnecting it would be ok ... Is the return one of the pipes that takes the water back to boiler ? If so could be anywhere in the pipework . Sorry I know it must be a very basic question, but Im a ladyyyyyy, lol. Although I must say think I might go in for a plumbing course after all this ... :yes:
Thanks Phoenix Services. I did if pump should be taken out which he said he would do initially and put a piece of pipe in to replace it but then said disconnecting it would be ok ... Is the return one of the pipes that takes the water back to boiler ? If so could be anywhere in the pipework . Sorry I know it must be a very basic question, but Im a ladyyyyyy, lol. Although I must say think I might go in for a plumbing course after all this ... :yes:
K
Kaz1111
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
How did I miss that one! Didn't get an email saying had a reply ... Am in Beckenham, any good?
How did I miss that one! Didn't get an email saying had a reply ... Am in Beckenham, any good?
R
Rickster123
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Ahh beckenham my old home town! Not near Langley school are you? Memory lane!
Ahh beckenham my old home town! Not near Langley school are you? Memory lane!
K
Kaz1111
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Ha ha, no problem. Still a very good school, we moved here from another borough for school. Nice area too, station, pub, shops, nearby, but nice and quiet, what more could you ask for. Actually a nice house in Knockholt with a couple of acres but I can dream !
Ha ha, no problem. Still a very good school, we moved here from another borough for school. Nice area too, station, pub, shops, nearby, but nice and quiet, what more could you ask for. Actually a nice house in Knockholt with a couple of acres but I can dream !
- Messages
- 67
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
I assume that you've got a HW tank.
So you say that on the HW mode boiler is working fine (except the 2rads hot), but on CH cycles (flow restriction)?
Than I would suggest checking both motorized valves, inspect that the rubber ball inside each them is intact and moving freely. If some bits missing -> it is blocking somewhere in the CH pipework. (in addition to the old pumps).
Tell them to do a proper flow resistance testing with garden hose or power flusher, check for pressure differential on the pipework/boiler. Also check boiler's waterways. (but less likely, because th HW is fine). Try flushing the system in the oposite flow direction from the boiler/pump connections. (Disconnect the boiler AND the extra pump to do that.) Be ready for the black bit of rubber ~(20-18mm) to emerge
-> do get your guy to have a look at motorized valves? Also check them on the inside? (Not just replace them), make sure bals/washers haven't gone missing and blocking?
PPS: Check for possible direct bypass between the flow/return pipes (from the single pipe system days). Do this if there is NO flow resistance between the flow/return, even if all rads are off/closed.
And wish all of you good luck and Happy and Warm Easter.
I assume that you've got a HW tank.
So you say that on the HW mode boiler is working fine (except the 2rads hot), but on CH cycles (flow restriction)?
Than I would suggest checking both motorized valves, inspect that the rubber ball inside each them is intact and moving freely. If some bits missing -> it is blocking somewhere in the CH pipework. (in addition to the old pumps).
Tell them to do a proper flow resistance testing with garden hose or power flusher, check for pressure differential on the pipework/boiler. Also check boiler's waterways. (but less likely, because th HW is fine). Try flushing the system in the oposite flow direction from the boiler/pump connections. (Disconnect the boiler AND the extra pump to do that.) Be ready for the black bit of rubber ~(20-18mm) to emerge
-> do get your guy to have a look at motorized valves? Also check them on the inside? (Not just replace them), make sure bals/washers haven't gone missing and blocking?
PPS: Check for possible direct bypass between the flow/return pipes (from the single pipe system days). Do this if there is NO flow resistance between the flow/return, even if all rads are off/closed.
And wish all of you good luck and Happy and Warm Easter.
K
Kaz1111
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
Today have turned all rads off apart from the two that were not heating at both ends; that is trv's to '0' and the other side with the ' pegler ferrier' top with an 'on' is now turned off. The two rads that were not working are now piping hot...
Do I now turn all the other rads back on individually one by one and see what happens? starting with the one nearest the two that are now hot, or does it not matter in which order they go back on.
Does this throw any further light on problem or are we still looking at possible circulation/sludge problem? Thank you.
Today have turned all rads off apart from the two that were not heating at both ends; that is trv's to '0' and the other side with the ' pegler ferrier' top with an 'on' is now turned off. The two rads that were not working are now piping hot...
Do I now turn all the other rads back on individually one by one and see what happens? starting with the one nearest the two that are now hot, or does it not matter in which order they go back on.
Does this throw any further light on problem or are we still looking at possible circulation/sludge problem? Thank you.
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
open the next radiator that is the furthest away count how many turns then turn it back a 1/4turn if all still working go to next furthest away and open fully then turn back 1/2turn and so on till they are all on good luck
open the next radiator that is the furthest away count how many turns then turn it back a 1/4turn if all still working go to next furthest away and open fully then turn back 1/2turn and so on till they are all on good luck
- Messages
- 67
Re: Householder here, pls help, downstairs rads cold, enginineer stumped after power
circulation/sludge/blockage problem - YES it is.
So once you've blocked the easy (-er) path, the water now is working it's way to the remote rads (so we've got partial blockage). Now try turning them on one by one, and see when two coldest ones become cold/cool again. Also listen for the water noise, as you open up the valves -it will tell you that that rad probably is before the blockage (if in the pipework).
Good Luck.
circulation/sludge/blockage problem - YES it is.
So once you've blocked the easy (-er) path, the water now is working it's way to the remote rads (so we've got partial blockage). Now try turning them on one by one, and see when two coldest ones become cold/cool again. Also listen for the water noise, as you open up the valves -it will tell you that that rad probably is before the blockage (if in the pipework).
Good Luck.
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