HW only works when CH is on, and other problems

[PuraTherm]

I would like to say my deepest sympathies to you and your family for being subjected this poor workmanship. I have installed afew of the unvented systems and even the most difficult one to install was less than 6,000. To have this type of installers out there give us all a black eye.
I strongly suggest that if you can you shut down the whole thing down, drain off the cylinder (remember to shut off the power to the imersion and the boiler) and get this inspected before any more damage is done your home.

 

[oldplumber]

Hang fire guys, does anyone know if the installers were unqualified, you may well be terrifying the poor owner here and find the actual system is safe although it looks as if a two year old has been playing with his dads kit. We all agree the cost is exhorbitant, but lets all settle back a bit and ask, did the customer get several quotes/estimates first, if not whos to blame here. I for one would be very happy to work for that sort of money if people are willing and able to pay, but I would do a proper and tidy job whether or not I was being paid around £100 an hour. best advice now is to ask the trading standards in for their advice (local council is where to go ), and take it from there, and they can then do the chasing up if it is deemed neccessary

 

[nervous123]

So what's the best thing to do now?

Should I call Trading Standards or LABC? (If I call LABC do I risk getting in trouble for quality of job? Don't see why I should - I used a contractor trusting him to do everything to all standards/regulations. Distinctly remember telling him so at onset of job.)

 

[GrahamM]

The main thing is is to make sure there are no other underlying safety issues that may be worse than what can be viewed by your photos. Get hold of a Gas Safe Registered engineer who has his Unvented qualification to take a look and give his opinion ASAP.
Once it can be established how bad it is you can look at taking action and getting it rectified.
It is unfortunate you have been stung here, but put it down to experience and make sure you and your home are safe.

 

[shorticus]

As PuraTherm said I would also wish to convey my sympathies, you have clearly been taken advantage of.
The installation aside from looking like a dog’s dinner is potentially unsafe.
From what I can tell the mains cold feed has been looped back into the balanced cold outlet on the multivalve thereby bypassing the pressure reducing valve, the discharge pipe is plastic and the prv discharge pipe runs up hill, evidence enough that the installers didn’t know what they were doing.
Don’t worry about being in trouble, the duty of care lies with your contractor, as previously stated get it checked ASAP, gas safe, G3 qualified and a CIPHE member if you can, we follow a professional code of conduct.
All the best, let us know how you get on.
Shorty.

 

[oldplumber]

nice pickup shorti on the mains fed and multi valve, now u mention it that setup is looking positively interesting and needs inspecting closeup by a qualified installer asap, my natural desire to be fair to custard and installer is probably wrong on his occassion and someone needs taking in hand and slapped shortly thereafter. Use an approved contractor for an inspection and call in trading standards at thesame time so they can track down the installer, ring the localcouncil for advice here, then when all has been put right thebuildings control will be happy and a good installer will be able to self certify his work and have a buildings control ticket issued to the customer

 

[Gray0689]

That instalation is a total balls he has 2 mot valves on same line that's why you have to have heating on as it has to open heating valve to get to hot water valve
As stated cold feed is totally wrong prv is piped wrong pipes should be lagged 1m from cylinder but as in a roof space should all be lagged with 22mm by 19mm armaflex or same propertys
Not a shut of valve in sight
(you better hope it does not freeze)
Your discharge pipework I'd like to see where it comes out of house?
I would be thinking it's wrong size? Sorry but you got ripped off big time
And as stated I'd be looking to see if your joists are up to taking that kind of weight
Unfortanatly to get an unvented ticket a trained monkey can do this in a day it's simple
And ciph means nothing any plumber Can join this organisation
As you got your boiler instaled by a gsr installer if there a problem there you got some come back if problem

But I'd get that cylinder looked at it's probably not unsafe but there is a lot of problems needs sorted to make sure there nothing we all missed from limited pictures

Best if luck hope you get it sorted

 

[nervous123]

Unfortanatly to get an unvented ticket a trained monkey can do this in a day it's simple
And ciph means nothing any plumber Can join this organisation

But I'd get that cylinder looked at

Best if luck hope you get it sorted

Thanks for the review of problems - much appreciated.

If, according to you, the unvented ticket and CIPH are not that meaningful, who should I go to for an opinion?

 

[Gray0689]

Thanks for the review of problems - much appreciated.

If, according to you, the unvented ticket and CIPH are not that meaningful, who should I go to for an opinion?

Unvented qualification is mandatory to work on these cylinders just easy to get
Ask on here if anyone near you to have a look at this cylinder there is a lot of good experienced plumbers on this site if no one in your area maybe someone can point you in right direction
Hope you get it sorted mate

 

[nervous123]

Ask on here if anyone near you to have a look at this cylinder there is a lot of good experienced plumbers on this site if no one in your area maybe someone can point you in right direction
Hope you get it sorted mate

With that in mind... can anyone recommend a good reliable fellow near NW London? Thanks...

 

[Kimou]

Incredible. I'd get some support under that ply, sharpish. If that base collapses; you could be in big trouble. 1 litre= 1 kilo, so if you got a 200L vessel, well, do the maths. It doesn't look like it fits on both the 4"x2" batons.

It wasn't Wagbo who installed it...was it?

 

[washer]

Unusual to support the expansion vessel with copper pipe.

 

[shorticus]

Just had a closer look at your pics, it would appear that there is a pipe teeing in-between the two motorised valves, assuming this is the flow then I would suggest that the circulation issue maybe an electrical/controls one. Other than the integral IV in the multifunction valve I’m not sure there’s a need for extra isolation valves. As far as the weight is concerned as this is a plumbing forum I doubt anyone here (and I might be wrong!) has a grasp of Young’s Modulus nor be capable of calculating bending moments from photographs, I would seek the advice of a Structural Engineer...something your contractor should have done.
G3 is easy but then again so is plumbing; it never ceases to amaze me how wrong some people get it, perhaps that’s why there is a slow but steady advance for better regulation.
CIPHE is not perfect but in the absence of compulsory licensing it at least can demonstrate an individual’s good intent on raising standards in our craft and developing their own continued education. There's no-one that has all the answers. As I previously said, look for CIPHE registration ‘in conjunction’ with the correct qualifications and Gas Safe registration, if you can find someone with CORGI plumbing as well then I’m sure you’ll not go too far wrong.
Best of British, be sure to let us know how it pans out.

 

[Avatar]

Its so bad I would think about taking the guy to court for the lot:

As a customer legally you have to get a job of REASONABLE quailty for a REASONABLE price - niether of which seem in evidence!

10k its cost, find out how much I would cost to make safe and rectify, then get a court judgement against the guy for that amount.

It sounds hardcore, but you have been royally stiffed - I would be charging you about 4-5k all in to do that job properly!

Good luck!

 

[gasmarc]

we all make mistakes sometimes and i think you just need to resign yourself to the fact that its going to cost you another grand max to sort out

 

[oilman]

I agree with lots of the points already mentioned , the expansion vessel should not be mounted with the air valve at the top
THE LINK FROM INLET TO BALANCED OUTPUT AT BASE OF PRESSURE REDUCING VALVE BYPASSES THE FUNCTION OF THE VALVE very dangerous. If you are lucky your mains pressure may be below 3 bar.
An unvented cylinder is controlled by law and must be notified by a qualified installer or inspected by Building Control if installed by anyone else.
The safety discharge pipe must be of material that can stand boiling water and of a size related to the length of it's path. Mostly this would be copper or steel pipework definitely not plastic water connectors.

 

[washer]

What I dont get, is why would you even consider putting that link in on the pressure reducing valve, and even more worrying how many more installations have got it.

 

[nervous123]

Thanks everyone for all the helpful comments and sympathy. In a way, I guess it's actually 'lucky' that i had the problem with the CH and HW controls, as it seems to have highlighted far more fundamental issues...

The reason I didn't shop around for more prices is that I got 3 quotes for all the renovations (also incl electrics, removing chimneys etc) from 3 separate contractors. This guy was (at least initially) the cheapest so I took him. He must have been either lying, or deflated the other prices to compensate.

One of my biggest gripes about the whole business is that I specially took a contractor rather than get the individual workers (electrician, plumber etc) despite the inevitable markup, to save me the hassle (I work 9-5.30) - and all I've got is grief and hassle. Ironic isn't it.

Anyway, hopefully (depending on his workload) I've got someone coming in this week to inspect. He's IPHE registered - will see what he says.

PS> At first I was inclined to let sleeping dogs lie, however I'm now veering more and more to suing the contractor, especially as everyone says 10k is too much even for a properly done job.

 

[gasmarc]

yes I would do it if he is still in business , hopefully any structural work has been passed, good luck

 

[SafeGasInstall]

pls keep us update .

good luck !

 

[oilman]

I guess the installer saw the input to the pressure reducing valve and then the balanced cold for showers etc and thought "that's the same thing" and connected the ports Thereby proving he is neither competent nor qualified

 

[Avatar]

One of my biggest gripes about the whole business is that I specially took a contractor rather than get the individual workers (electrician, plumber etc) despite the inevitable markup, to save me the hassle (I work 9-5.30) - and all I've got is grief and hassle. Ironic isn't it.

I am always preaching to customers to do this - if you get a builder in as a main contractor he will just bring in the other trades anyway, and charge 50% extra ontop of their labour fees, or even worse do the plumbing, electrical or gas work himself, without the proper qualifications!

Man, a lot of my work (50%) is putting right work that builders have done - it is absolutely shocking!


As to the legal route - I am soory but if you pay 10 grand for a car, and it doesn't drive and has loads of faults you take it back for a refund!

People dont think that they are in their rights to sue a builder, but they are. You can even get baliffs up at em, when the judgement has been passed!

 

[shorticus]

PS> At first I was inclined to let sleeping dogs lie, however I'm now veering more and more to suing the contractor, especially as everyone says 10k is too much even for a properly done job.

Personaly speaking if someone owes me money I'll not let them of the hook, however I'd advise getting some legal advice. I'm not sure whether you have to give your contractor the opportunity to put things right even though there's clear demonstration of incompetance. Perhaps a quick phone call to trading standards or citizens advice might be prudent

 

[Avatar]

if i remember rightly you have to write a 'without predudice' letter giving them 14 days at least to rembuse you, or in this case put the work right . . .

Legal adivce would be recommended, as you cannot use the small claims court for 10k!

Good luck.

 

[gasmarc]

avatar is correct ,you can get this clown to pay to rectify all this bad work but that is only if he has money,