I want to get ito gas

[quality]

How annoying is it to the proper experienced & qualified registered fellows of the trade that folk want to do a fast track course and work for nothing to gain a portfolio then get registered with gas safe without actually having a clue !

It makes my Pe boil

am I alone ?

 

[Puddle]

Well yes and no

To have any argument about fast track you also really need an available alternative and at this current time ,there is not really one out there


The industry,trade and qualifications required are all changing,thats a fact and we have to accept this within reason and help it evolve

To stay staunch in one corner of the debate will only mean you will be left behind

imho

 

[quality]

I will be totally honest I have had two guys over the past 3 years build their portfolio with me, one is valeting cars the other is a porter at the local hospital they both gained their own registration and gave it everything they had

It obviously was not good enough or rather they were not

Ps that left behind bit was good Ive got coffee all over my monitor

Nice one

 

[hydrotherm]

I think they are brainwashed by the training centres who tell them that if they become a rge they earn £1000 a week. At the moment its hard to quote and win the job against Billy Bodgit.I know that we should encourage new blood into the trade to replace old gits like me but I would hate to see the trade flooded with fasttrackers with the wrong attitude

 

[villa_tom]

To be fair I think it depends on the type of person. I did my apprenticeship with a large firm and all was well and I'm doing ok now. But I also know lads who did "fast track" and are doing a good job out there. And I know lads who did the "full apprenticeship" who I wouldn't let tune in my TV, let alone mess with gas. Weather you do full couse or fast track I don't really think matters its what you do once you have your tickets that matters. If your out there doing a good job and doing it safe then I don't think anyone will really be bothered how you aquired your qual's.

 

[Blake]

Personally I just get sick of the whole jumping on the bandwagon thing that has been going on. This coupled with some training centres claiming there is a national shortage of plumbers and gas fitters.

In many ways it's the poor guys that come on here every day asking how to get into plumbing and gas that I feel sorry for. I'm scratching for a living, competing with people who seem happy to work for nowt and watching decent small companies go under. Then I log on here and still see more and more folks thinking that buying a van, doing a course for £4k will mean they can earn a small fortune.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for folks improving there lifestyle, following the dream etc, I just think too many people are being misled and find themselves £4k out of pocket and then struggle to find work.

 

[royston]

yeah i agree with them being mislead by the centres and all the adverts of plumbers/gas engineer's earning thousands. I even get customers saying there is a lack of plumbers, dont know where they get it from as you look at the plumbers in the local free paper and theres a new add in there every week.

 

[wbasiross]

I may come into this conversation at a bad time and please be gentle !!! but i am one of those doing the fast track course at the moment , I do agree with you there are some people on the course I would never let them work on anything of mine but please dont tar all people with the same brush !!!

The engineer i am training with is very knowledgeable but he chooses not to do things the right way all the times because he just has such a tight schedule that he cuts corners , not unsafe just not the way I am learning at the training centre with all the regs and stuff .

Its down to the individual on how much pride he has in his work and some of the people that have been doing it for years are really not very good , try getting your own boiler serviced and watch the guy do it and ask yourself , would you do it the same way ??

 

[villa_tom]

I may come into this conversation at a bad time and please be gentle !!! but i am one of those doing the fast track course at the moment , I do agree with you there are some people on the course I would never let them work on anything of mine but please dont tar all people with the same brush !!!

The engineer i am training with is very knowledgeable but he chooses not to do things the right way all the times because he just has such a tight schedule that he cuts corners , not unsafe just not the way I am learning at the training centre with all the regs and stuff .

Its down to the individual on how much pride he has in his work and some of the people that have been doing it for years are really not very good , try getting your own boiler serviced and watch the guy do it and ask yourself , would you do it the same way ??

Thats the problem with working for a firm, they expect a certain amount of work done per day and think 12 hours work can be done between 8 and 4.30. Some firms have a lot to answer for when it comes to bad workmanship. How can someone expect to service 12 boilers in an 8 hour shift. Yet it is up to the bloke doing the work to just send jobs back, yet with the way work is at the minute you can't blame blokes being frightened to, yet this is no excuse. Doing a short or long course is not the reason for people cutting corners it the blokes doing it who are to blame.
Good luck with your training mate and hope you find a job at the end of it!
Tom

 

[GQuigley67]

I personally don't think you can do a fast track course and learn to be a qualified engineer as you make alot of mistakes as an apprentice and you get away with them because your an apprentice, and theres alot to remember and take in like pipe sizes and fittings and materials etc took me at least a year to get used to what tools were what what pipe sizes were etc

 

[GQuigley67]

Thats the problem with working for a firm, they expect a certain amount of work done per day and think 12 hours work can be done between 8 and 4.30. Some firms have a lot to answer for when it comes to bad workmanship. How can someone expect to service 12 boilers in an 8 hour shift. Yet it is up to the bloke doing the work to just send jobs back, yet with the way work is at the minute you can't blame blokes being frightened to, yet this is no excuse. Doing a short or long course is not the reason for people cutting corners it the blokes doing it who are to blame.
Good luck with your training mate and hope you find a job at the end of it!
Tom

one of my old gaffers put you under alot of pressure to get x amount done in a day always = more mistakes if you ask me

 

[GrahamM]

As puddle mentioned. What other alternative have people in these times? Where are the apprenticeships?
Things change. The good old days are gone.

It's swings and roundabouts. I have along with others here said this before on this forum, I know a few so called, time served plumbers/gas engineers that I would not leave alone to read my meter never mind let anywhere near my boiler and on the other-side I know a few fast-track gas engineers who I would leave alone to to do a complete system install for me.

There are a lot of time served idiots out there and there are a lot of very competent fast-trackers.

 

[tamz]

The fast track plumbers doesn't bother me too much. Worst they can do is flood the place.
What DOES bother me is the fast track into gas. There have been a few posts over the past week or so about the fastest way into the trade and how it can be done in X amount of months.
This is playing with peoples lives. The fast track collages will happily continue to collect the cash until it is stopped. It is all very well passing the buck to the engineer but when the engineer doesn't know his rse from his elbow it is only a matter of time before it costs a life.
Gas Safe or the HSE should tighten up on the entry requirements for this not only on training (which is a joke anyway) but more so make the need for say 1 years experience actually working with someone before they can get their own registration.
This won't happen as usual until there is a tragedy and an outcry.
It always seems to be about the money: from all sides.

 

[willing2learn]

To be fair I think it depends on the type of person. I did my apprenticeship with a large firm and all was well and I'm doing ok now. But I also know lads who did "fast track" and are doing a good job out there. And I know lads who did the "full apprenticeship" who I wouldn't let tune in my TV, let alone mess with gas. Weather you do full couse or fast track I don't really think matters its what you do once you have your tickets that matters. If your out there doing a good job and doing it safe then I don't think anyone will really be bothered how you aquired your qual's.

Completely agree with you here Tom. It's the same in all walks of life mate, you get people that learn fast and are willing to learn and have a hunger for the knowledge, and then you get.......well, the er...others!!

 

[julesverne]

i completed a so called fast track course this year for gas as i had no option because no plumber would give me work experience in my area as i was competition to them. my situation was this i'm a self employed plumber of 3 years did my level 2 c+g in the evenings allowing me to work came to do level 3 . first problem day release could not afford to take a day off work for 2 years. 2nd no work experience would not be allowed to take ACS(quite rightly so)

so i had to to do the fast track but then again i wasn't going into this blind i had a fair amount of knowledge.

sales people do talk ****e, tell you this tell you that say you can earn a shed load of money and whilst you can make a good living from plumbing it takes time to build a business from scratch.

so i started my fast track course in march last year. 12 guys on the course only 2 of us are plumbers by trade.

training was suspect and the practical centre was full of old appliances and no band a boilers or b for that matter all they were really interested in were open flue scenario's.
spent 6 weeks theory + practical for a c+g qualification. here's the laughable part, you had 2 attempts to get 100% and if failed on the 2nd attempt they talked you through the answers you got wrong , so no one ever failed and this actually allowed by C+G
then you went out to get your portfolio i did mine in 4 weeks all i had to show was 6 services , 6 installs,6 repairs of 1 appliance.

went in did my acs core and 1 appliance(gas fires) got gas safe registered and then due to a loop hole went back and did my boilers,cookers and water heaters. i know how wrong this is and i consider myself to be experienced. but the other 10 who have had no previous experience whatsoever will at some point do the same as me.

incidentally since taking the course i know of 3 of the guys who have quit the course at a cost 5500 quid to them saying it was too hard.

i think the problem lies mainly with the fast track course providers, they are selling the promise of 40+ grand a year and it's just not realistic. christ they don't even teach fault finding on appliance's and that's a black art that takes a lifetimeto learn i consider myself lucky i was a mechanic many years ago so have the fault finding imprinted in my brain, but would you expect an accountant (yes there was an accountant on my course) to have the same skills and then after fast tracking go out repairing boilers cookers etc.

i don't profess to be the super mario plumber but i do consider myself to be safe. but from my experience it's not possible to do a fast track course without having previous experience of plumbing in general. here's was the best part the centre i went charged £2000.00 for a 2 weeks course on how to plumb a bathroom and basic plumbing skills pipe bending soldering etc.

imho i do believe safety before profit should be put first but we live in a want want society and sadly think even death wouldn't stop these centr's plying there trade.

would like to point out though there were some guys although were inexperienced they were dedicated and will make it.

 

[Blackcatgas]

i completed a so called fast track course this year for gas as i had no option because no plumber would give me work experience in my area as i was competition to them. my situation was this i'm a self employed plumber of 3 years did my level 2 c+g in the evenings allowing me to work came to do level 3 . first problem day release could not afford to take a day off work for 2 years. 2nd no work experience would not be allowed to take ACS(quite rightly so)

so i had to to do the fast track but then again i wasn't going into this blind i had a fair amount of knowledge.

sales people do talk ****e, tell you this tell you that say you can earn a shed load of money and whilst you can make a good living from plumbing it takes time to build a business from scratch.

so i started my fast track course in march last year. 12 guys on the course only 2 of us are plumbers by trade.

training was suspect and the practical centre was full of old appliances and no band a boilers or b for that matter all they were really interested in were open flue scenario's.
spent 6 weeks theory + practical for a c+g qualification. here's the laughable part, you had 2 attempts to get 100% and if failed on the 2nd attempt they talked you through the answers you got wrong , so no one ever failed and this actually allowed by C+G
then you went out to get your portfolio i did mine in 4 weeks all i had to show was 6 services , 6 installs,6 repairs of 1 appliance.

went in did my acs core and 1 appliance(gas fires) got gas safe registered and then due to a loop hole went back and did my boilers,cookers and water heaters. i know how wrong this is and i consider myself to be experienced. but the other 10 who have had no previous experience whatsoever will at some point do the same as me.

incidentally since taking the course i know of 3 of the guys who have quit the course at a cost 5500 quid to them saying it was too hard.

i think the problem lies mainly with the fast track course providers, they are selling the promise of 40+ grand a year and it's just not realistic. christ they don't even teach fault finding on appliance's and that's a black art that takes a lifetimeto learn i consider myself lucky i was a mechanic many years ago so have the fault finding imprinted in my brain, but would you expect an accountant (yes there was an accountant on my course) to have the same skills and then after fast tracking go out repairing boilers cookers etc.

i don't profess to be the super mario plumber but i do consider myself to be safe. but from my experience it's not possible to do a fast track course without having previous experience of plumbing in general. here's was the best part the centre i went charged £2000.00 for a 2 weeks course on how to plumb a bathroom and basic plumbing skills pipe bending soldering etc.

imho i do believe safety before profit should be put first but we live in a want want society and sadly think even death wouldn't stop these centr's plying there trade.

would like to point out though there were some guys although were inexperienced they were dedicated and will make it.

WTF? sounds good, Iam going to charge £1000 to supervise somone to fit a bathroom while I have a cup of tea.

 

[kirkgas]

I personally don't think you can do a fast track course and learn to be a qualified engineer as you make alot of mistakes as an apprentice and you get away with them because your an apprentice, and theres alot to remember and take in like pipe sizes and fittings and materials etc took me at least a year to get used to what tools were what what pipe sizes were etc

it depends on the individual, i'm time served as a plumber then trained in gas, i agree i made mistakes as an apprentice and learned slowly and properly, this skill allowed me to diversify into gas and oil as i had the skill set of learning behind me, when i did my gas first time i got sent on a one week training course for ACOPS, after one weeks trainign i sat and passed my gas exams, then i started on gas work, quite scary TBH, but i worked very hard and was totally comitted to expanding my skill and not injuring anyone, so to the people who join the course i run now which is 28 weeks full time for bpec, if they have the right attitude and aptitude how can we say they cant learn the basics in 6 months to ensure they are safe all the time, then they get a job and learn how to repair boilers along side basic service work, it is ridiculous to suggest a time served electronics engineer cannot learn gas, there are plentty of guys who have yrs of DIY experience who have a totally commited attitude to safety who can work through the course then go self employed and learn slowly and safely, and yes there are some who join the courses and all they want to know is how to work the system to get what they can, but i have met many many time served tradesmen in lots of different trades who have a disgraceful attitude to work and only care about what they can get, there are several Glasgow firms who i wont name here who have their gas guys doing 12+ jobs a day on a salary, but if the 12 dont get competed they lose money, this is disgraceful and i would never work there, so what does it say about the long term time served guys who do work there, and when they come in for their re-assessment tell you what they have done and earned over the yrs and it is a disgrace that they need to prove competance every 5 yrs , then when they start the assessments they havent got a scooby what they should be doing, " i never gas rate, cause i only install i dont repair", "i cant remember how to purge, it is never required where i work" "you dont need to calculate gas flow, 22mm from the meter is always enough" ok i appreciate and it is fair they need refresher training on these items and tests every 5 yrs, but i have trained a few guys on the foundation courses who are making a very good living doing gas and why shouldnt they, as i said im time served in plumbing and only did 1 week to get into gas, surely i should be banned as well, its the same with my oil, basic traing added to all my experience got me there

 

[kirkgas]

imho i do believe safety before profit should be put first but we live in a want want society and sadly think even death wouldn't stop these centr's plying there trade.

would like to point out though there were some guys although were inexperienced they were dedicated and will make it.[/QUOTE]

i have chopped the rest of your post out so save repetition, i agree with what you have said apart from the highlighted bit, it isnt just about a death cancelling short courses, what happens when a 20+yr time served guy kills someone, how can that happen? and what happens to him and his firm, he gets done for manslaughter, the firm reviews its procedures (cause they have been caught making their guys do too much work per day, and after an incident it is all about learning from the experience and minimising the chance of it happening again to placate the HSE) when the guy gets out of jail he can redo his ACS (prob ran out as he got morre than 5yr for killing the family) then he goes straight back to work, so it isnt all about new guys killing someone and doing bad work by a long way, i actually teach the guys to go to a gas job and EXPECT to find problems from the last guy/guys rather than expect to find no problems, so what does that say about the level of work being done, would we all be happy to say "ok we need better supervision of the bad guys, so lets cancel ACS and go to a system where we are all inspected, and assessed on site and if you dont meet the criteria you lose your ticket", end of conversation you are out the trade for ever, or is that too strict, so you get caught and need to retrain/reassess, would we prefer that, it would weed out the bad ones where ever they came from but it would still need to be funded and policed, there would be the assumption that some inspectors would refer people for training for a back hander etc, and what would be the reaction to someone getting caught and suspended with no earnings, i would be happy to agree to this cause i dont do any dodgy gas work so it would be good for me to reduce the dodgy guys and let the rest of us get all the work,

 

[wbasiross]

cheers villa-tom , will try my best to get the job and will put all i have to prove i am a good gas engineer

 

[smillsey]

Kirkgas i like the way you think. Escpecially about the mention of a "time served electronics engineer" as i was one once upon a time.

I am horrified with the lack of electrical/electronics knowledge displayed across the trade in general. I used to be an Avionics/Aircraft electrics engineer, and have never came across a boiler that was anywhere near as complicated in wiring and system control compared to an aircraft. Last time i went to acs i was asked to look at the boiler on the wall, then asked what can i see that is wrong, found the obvious (you know what i mean, thermostat obvious thing they do - i wont go into that) then asked him if he wanted me to check the Full flame rectification and lock out facility, he looked at me like i was talking in french, and proceeded to tell me that why should i, i already know that it is shorted out. Oh dear me i thought, but nodded and carried on as he requested. So it was implied that the fact the thermostat was shorted out (which was a switch mechanism on the said boiler) had anything to do with the fact the flame rectified the AC signal to half wave is bizzare.

I understand the point quality is making though, fast tracking has a bad reputation and rightly so. I feel it should still have entry criteria, for example a set amount of years experience in a "qualifying trade" Where you get an accountant doing 6 months on gas and then deemed to be competant is a joke.

It does take years of imprinting the engineers method of thinking into the best of brains. I mean the way we put nuts back on the bolts so they dont get lost, the way we can work out on our own how to get to something that is buried below 15 other components, to know how tight a nut has to be to make a good seal, to unsderstand why we are gas rating, why a bigger injector means you get a bigger gas rate, what the back pressure on a new combi is indicating.

For anyone to say you cant just convert to gas from another engineering trade, I feel only people who are not a real engineer at heart come to these conclusions.

If you look at the Aircraft world, once an aircraft engineer, you can work on an absolutely massive wide range of equipment, each radar system competely different, are we saying you must retrain for 4 years if your are tasked to work on a different radar system, not sure about that.

The entry criteria for gas should be changed, but without apprenticeships happening we have no chance. I will be taking on an apprentice soon as it is the best way of learning the trade, only with a good teacher though.

Sorry i'll shut up.

 

[mikegas]

imho i do believe safety before profit should be put first but we live in a want want society and sadly think even death wouldn't stop these centr's plying there trade.

would like to point out though there were some guys although were inexperienced they were dedicated and will make it.

i have chopped the rest of your post out so save repetition, i agree with what you have said apart from the highlighted bit, it isnt just about a death cancelling short courses, what happens when a 20+yr time served guy kills someone, how can that happen? and what happens to him and his firm, he gets done for manslaughter, the firm reviews its procedures (cause they have been caught making their guys do too much work per day, and after an incident it is all about learning from the experience and minimising the chance of it happening again to placate the HSE) when the guy gets out of jail he can redo his ACS (prob ran out as he got morre than 5yr for killing the family) then he goes straight back to work, so it isnt all about new guys killing someone and doing bad work by a long way, i actually teach the guys to go to a gas job and EXPECT to find problems from the last guy/guys rather than expect to find no problems, so what does that say about the level of work being done, would we all be happy to say "ok we need better supervision of the bad guys, so lets cancel ACS and go to a system where we are all inspected, and assessed on site and if you dont meet the criteria you lose your ticket", end of conversation you are out the trade for ever, or is that too strict, so you get caught and need to retrain/reassess, would we prefer that, it would weed out the bad ones where ever they came from but it would still need to be funded and policed, there would be the assumption that some inspectors would refer people for training for a back hander etc, and what would be the reaction to someone getting caught and suspended with no earnings, i would be happy to agree to this cause i dont do any dodgy gas work so it would be good for me to reduce the dodgy guys and let the rest of us get all the work,[/QUOTE]

Totally agree, whilst building my portfolio i had to add things into my write ups that the engineers id been working with didn't bother to do, some didnt know how to do and they'd been qualified for years, corgi or gas safe hadn't been near them for years and these guys were supposed to be training new entrants so maybe that's part of the problem why new entrants aren't up to it, how can you expect to have a new generation of competent gas engineers when these guys are part of their training. Should be more thorough and regular gas safe inspections time served or not

 

[tamz]

Some good points raised by Jules, Kirk and Smillsey and we all agree it is better or easier coming from an engineering or mechanical background.
What bothers me is the others. The ones who can hardly handle a tool and would struggle to change a fuse in a plug. With more people being made redundant and getting a few quid pay off, the training centres are preying on them with false hopes and promises.

Yes there are many timeserved tradesmen who should know better. Some people are just unable to work without constant supervision. Tell them what to do and they will do it, but cannot think for themselves. Most of these however will have no aspirations of self employment and thankfully realise their limitations. It is (or should be) their employers responsibility to check what they are doing is being done correctly. Also the unrealistic time constraints and expectations being placed on them (this is mainly by the bigger companies) to do more jobs in a day leads to bad workmanship too. You may have a guy who could easily do 3 or 4 jobs in a day who when given 12 panics and "forgets" to do even simple checks which normally he would never do. This is down to bad management as much as a bad tradesman. Auditing is all very well but even the auditors are under time pressures.

Most of the career changers who come through the training centres however, will never have the luxury of working for an employer or even alongside another tradesman or being audited. They will gain little to no practical experience doing their ACS (it is not about practical). Their (short) time spent gathering a portfolio will not gain them much practical experience either unless the engineer they are with is willing to take extra time on the job to show and explain things in detail and allow them to get hands on. I can't see that happening too often.
When an apprentice is learning they have years to get things right. It can be a slow process as there is a lot to learn (not just about plumbing or gas) and they will make many mistakes but as they are under the supervision of a tradesman their mistakes will be put right and they will be shown where they went wrong and will learn from them.

Kirk as you say, you came from plumbing into gas knowing little about it but as you worked for a big company at the time, there were lots of other guys who you could ask or who would show you if you got stuck. You may all have been in the same boat but you were never on your own with no backup.
Going self employed straight away with no experience and no network of experienced tradesmen to help out is a whole different thing. Being self employed can be a lonely experience. How do you know if what you are doing is correct if no one ever tells you or checks it.

This is mainly why i think someone who gains their gas quals should have to do a minumum time spent working alongside others before being allowed to be registered in their own right.
I know it is a catch 22 as you would need a job to get the experience and without experience it is hard to get the job.
I don't know how this could be addressed but i believe something has to change as gas is heading the same way as plumbing.
You'll remember around 15 -20 years ago when all the kitchen fitters and the like were being registered incase they had to disconnect a hob. They were passing the ACS (or was it still ACOPs at the time) but were obviously still clueless. Then it was realised this was a bad thing so they changed the criterion to include experience.
The centres are now working around this by offering experience or "placements" as part of the courses. These placement companies, who are no doubt well paid for their contribution, have a vested interest in pass rates alongside the centres so do you think this is a good set up?
Just out of curiosity. Does anyone know what the actual failure rate is for ACS? (Not including referrals).

 

[kirkgas]

Just out of curiosity. Does anyone know what the actual failure rate is for ACS? (Not including referrals).[/QUOTE]

i dont but im sure i could find out bpec figures this type of thing should be available, however not sure how they are collated, there are figures for who passes with expiry dates 5yrs later, but if that guy comes in early enough and fails his paperwork may well sit in the centre as we need to pay a certification fee for every pass to get a cert, we dont pay a certification fee for a fail then the certification body might not know he has failed, and then he comes back and passes so he shows on the main data base as a pass, here is a question i should know the answer to (but dont) if you go for ACS early and fail should you be allowed to carry on working till you pass as you are clearly unsafe, i mean really dodgy flue flow and spillage test, doing TT with no water in the u guage etc clearly showing he doesnt ever do TT, that isnt the same as not yet competant, which is for people who are too slow and run out of time but are ok, this stems from having a target time to complete the assessment, but it cant be a reason to suspend his ticket for being very slow and very safe,

 

[tamz]

doing TT with no water in the u guage etc clearly showing he doesnt ever do TT,

Yer having a laugh

The ones who are as bad as that should be suspended from doing gas work with immediate effect (set up the numpty hotline). If he looses his job through it, tough. He should never be doing this if he doesn't even understand the basics.

 

[kirkgas]

Yer having a laugh

The ones who are as bad as that should be suspended from doing gas work with immediate effect (set up the numpty hotline). If he looses his job through it, tough. He should never be doing this if he doesn't even understand the basics.

of all the many many many guys i have seen in the training centres there was one guy who did this, it wasnt just that and if (and its a big if) it was just down to nerves he would have been sent for a cuppa and a ciggie, but there were too many small things he wasnt getting right, he was actually someone who had done gas many yrs before (scary eh) and was sent back by his boss to do the gas again, he was quickly dispatched back to his boss with a quick phone call to say he couldnt hack it, he never came back so i dont know what happened to him, but IF he was back for re-assessment i would have made a phone call to CORGI to fiscuss what to do with him