Lead welding

[Plouasne]

Just lead

I agree with you its the use of your head and the adoption of what you have been taught when using the old materials, to do the same with new materials, but if the youngsters have not been taught how to work with the old materials how are they going to know what to do when it comes to something slightly out of the normal run of work

Bernie,

Have a look at this link below sorry mate, its all in French, but click on to Fiches Techniques, and see how the French plombiers do lead work, most is just about the same as a UK plumber would do the work and some is completely different, and not much "cop" in my opinion, but to get to the "Greens" the producers of the lead sheet are claiming Green credentials, because the lead can be re-cycled back into lead again, also the Zinc over here has both a certain amount of copper (WHAT copper and ZINC do not mix) and Titanium in the Zinc, and it lasts, also its almost as soft as lead to fold, rather like the four nines super purity aluminium sheet, that was used in the UK [ I made some dormer cheeks out of the 4 9's stuff, and polished it, did it shine, when the sun hit it, almost blinding]

The link might be of interest to Just Lead as well

Le Plomb Francais Filiale du Groupe Eco-Bat Technologies PLC, 1er producteur mondial de plomb - Accueil

Also click on to Produits, and look at Plomb coule a sable (sand cast lead), and Plomb S M H Special Momument Historique, (special lead for historic buildings) there they show a photo of an historic building re-roofed with 150 tonnes of this lead, the roof was done in 2004

The company will do "stages" training for learning how to work with lead

 

[justlead1]

Thanks for the post. i have in fact worked for the Information De plomb. I was asked to do a Tour De France demonstrating welding skills at collages and companions in the N,S,E and West of France. and i must say it was one of the most enjoyable and intresting times of my life.

 

[Plouasne]

Thanks for the post. i have in fact worked for the Information De plomb. I was asked to do a Tour De France demonstrating welding skills at collages and companions in the N,S,E and West of France. and i must say it was one of the most enjoyable and intresting times of my life.

I bet that you were well looked after, by the Companions ( a brief description of a Companion de France for the people who do not know what a Companion is, like the old journeyman trades person, who did a tour of France learning even more of their trade after an apprenticeship, before settling down in one place) with plenty of wine as well, did you know that the top apprentice plumber of France, a couple of years ago was not French born but UK born, who went to France as a child, it put a slight crimp in Jacques tail when he was introduced to the then President of France

 

[ken quinton]

Hi again.
Couple more interesting facts about lead.
Sheet lead was first used by the Normans.
Lead tiles go back 2,000 years and were used by the romans.
lead was first used 7,000 years ago to contain water ( plumbing)
and to prevent water penetration ( roofing)
Just goes to show the cross over between the two trades (lead sheet and
lead pipe) goes back a long way

 

[justlead1]

Hi Ken to add to you facts. It has been thought that the fall of the Roman empire may have been brought about by the fact that the Roman wine maker discovered that lead carbonate (The white powder that forms on the surface) was sweet. They collected with a Roman dust pan and brush and used to fortify their wine. The wine was only available to the ruling classes, who over a relatively short period of time lost the plot and the society collapsed. I bet there are a few plumber on here that have been through the same trip. Not to mention our politicians. Good Luck

 

[Avatar]

Throw away your lead working kit - no plumbers do sheet lead now anyway (apart from those 100 year old ones!!!)

Waste of time . . .

 

[david williams]

real plumbers can still do lead work and make a good living out of it ,i can i do and i can do all the new stuff like ,heat pumps ,solar,the use of plastic plumbing etc and i clip all my plastic plumbing properly but then i am a dinasour.not quite a 100 but still able to outwork and out think most young plumbers .do you know avatar if you carry on so stresed you will not live long anougth to be an old plumber all you posts are full of vitriol for older plumbers why???

 

[Plouasne]

real plumbers can still do lead work and make a good living out of it ,i can i do and i can do all the new stuff like ,heat pumps ,solar,the use of plastic plumbing etc and i clip all my plastic plumbing properly but then i am a dinasour.not quite a 100 but still able to outwork and out think most young plumbers .do you know avatar if you carry on so stresed you will not live long anougth to be an old plumber all you posts are full of vitriol for older plumbers why???

Dave,

Could the reason be for the diatribe that some of the posters are coming out with, is that they cannot do lead work in the first place

 

[david williams]

it is a shame realy but most of the new breed of plumbers cant do lead work,they may think its old hat but lead roofing is makeing a comeback because of its durability.its allways nice to have other areas of expertice to help you stay in work.but i feel avatar has had a bad experience with an older plumber somewhere.or is it that he feels anyone who qualified before him is just not up to it,but then he seems to know best what is rite for all of us ,perhaps he used to be a social worker

 

[Bernie2]

Hi! Plouasne,

Had a look at the site and it seems good.

The UK one is "The Lead Sheet Association" and the "copperboard" for copper roofing. They have both got interesting information on.

You know the new guys seem rather constricted in the work they can take on, it must be hard for them to make a living only doing bits and pieces.

I don't think anybody quite knows the extent of a Plumbers work. I've been required when installing urinal slabs, to work in toilets without tiles and no set levels, requiring me to set the levels which would eventually correspond with the tile patterns.

I don't suppose it occurs to most people that a Plumber has to know about tiling.

Moving on from there, what about roof constructions? How about having to work out the slate or tile cuts and then cut and fit them, when repairing or replacing lead or other valleys?

The whole area of Plumbing covers all kinds, in point you have virtually got to know how to construct a building from top to bottom. Lead D.P.C are not thrown in they have to be placed in according to the brickwork.

How about electronics and electric?

How about floor construction.

Then the art of making good your work.

How about glazing?

I suppose you could fill a book with what a Plumber is supposed to know about things people don't usually think of as Plumbing?

 

[david williams]

you can tell a plumber by size of tool bag ,all over trades just their own tools we have ours and everyone elses tools in our bag

 

[Plouasne]

Hi! Plouasne,

Had a look at the site and it seems good.

The UK one is "The Lead Sheet Association" and the "copperboard" for copper roofing. They have both got interesting information on.

You know the new guys seem rather constricted in the work they can take on, it must be hard for them to make a living only doing bits and pieces.

I don't think anybody quite knows the extent of a Plumbers work. I've been required when installing urinal slabs, to work in toilets without tiles and no set levels, requiring me to set the levels which would eventually correspond with the tile patterns.

I don't suppose it occurs to most people that a Plumber has to know about tiling.

Moving on from there, what about roof constructions? How about having to work out the slate or tile cuts and then cut and fit them, when repairing or replacing lead or other valleys?

The whole area of Plumbing covers all kinds, in point you have virtually got to know how to construct a building from top to bottom. Lead D.P.C are not thrown in they have to be placed in according to the brickwork.

How about electronics and electric?

How about floor construction.

Then the art of making good your work.

How about glazing?

I suppose you could fill a book with what a Plumber is supposed to know about things people don't usually think of as Plumbing?

Bernie,
Please do not talk to me about setting out for tiling, before the tiles were in place, I still have nightmares about setting out a Wade floor gully, and Barbican built into the wall wash hand basins, on the Barbican, there all you had was the rough concrete plus a "Datum" (any new boy knows what a datum is ??, no cheating and looking it up in wikipedia), to set out every thing from, there were no cut tiles in the room allowed, joints in the floor tiles follow the wall tiles, finished job looked bl00dy 'oribal just like a 4" square net had been placed over every thing

I used to have the then CDA booklets also the LDA books, still look at them at times via the web this time

Did you click on to this link as well, and the pictures to bring up the detailed drawings, one of the few things both sides of the channel agree on, on how it should be done
Le Plomb Francais Filiale du Groupe Eco-Bat Technologies PLC, 1er producteur mondial de plomb - Pour l'habitat ...

I did do a lead DPC on a couple of jobs for Cornwall C C, plus quite a bit of lead work for flat roofs and flashings, one that comes to mind was an architectural feature ??, what a co ck up, imagine a steel framed building, brick clad with a roof recessed at 45°between the top of the ground floor window and the first floor slab, along one side of the building for about 60 feet in length, all lead covered with "slates" to go around the steel uprights, supposed to be lead burnt, only thing wrong was that the steel had to be painted in intumisscent (sp) paint first, we were allowed to use a double lock welt at the back of the slate with the sole of the slate "burnt" to the lead covering, we must have been doing something right, because when my mate told the architect to get his big feet off the rolls of the roof he was standing on, both he and the C of W apologised
The building was a bit of a farce in other ways as well, somebody did not check the drawings before being issued to site and steel frame maker, because the steel uprights came straight in front of opening windows in some places, in other places it was the sway braces, levels were all out as well, the steel stanchion bases were at finished floor level, instead of being at sub base level

Electrics, I wonder how many check that nice plastic water main they are going to cut in to, is an actual water main and not some bodged sparks electrical conduit

Flooring, I was on a timber frame job once all floor were of the cassette type, made in a factory, and craned into place, could not lift the ply flooring to get the 1" flow and return in from a solid fuel boiler on the ground floor to the cylinder on the first floor, C of W gave written instructions to notch the under side of the joists (I made sure that the instruction was in writing before I did any notching of the joists, [that's called covering your back]), every dammed pipe in a block of 6 houses looked like a sparge pipe after the plasterboard tackers had finnished

Glazing, well I got the sack for this, and black listed, I was told to go and fit a sheet of Georgian wired glass to a roof of a conservatory, by my self, when I asked how big the sheet was they said 8 x 4 I said inches that's OK, No they said feet, that's when I told them that I would put it in with the lump hammer I had in my hand, straight through the middle of it. I got work with another firm about a month later the supervisor turned up on site said to the site agent that he had stacks of work did not know where to turn for plumbers saw me and said you, your finished, I asked anything wrong with my work?, no just don't want you, your a trouble maker

 

[david williams]

sparge pipes try not to confuse people. who could tell you what one was ,youl be talking of spruse-thrower pass-over units next

 

[stevetheplumber]

, I asked anything wrong with my work?, no just don't want you, your a trouble maker[/quote]

why does this not suprise me ?

 

[david williams]

plumbers we are all trouble makers,i think it is the nature of the job

 

[stevetheplumber]

sparge pipes try not to confuse people. who could tell you what one was ,youl be talking of spruse-thrower pass-over units next

ok curiosity has got the better of me google turns up nothing what is a spruse thrower?

plumbers we are all trouble makers,i think it is the nature of the job

about twenty years ago i was on a job in victoria it was state of the art technology everything was computer generated the only part of the build left up was the front and a complete steel frame was erected behind
Each steel was numbered and had pre drilled holes for all services so we locate hole numer 27 and start running pipework through only to meet an electrician comming the other way several hours of site meetings later it was realised that there were two set of drawings in circulation each being the mirrow image of each other so half the steels were laid back to front needlesss to say this was only realised after the concreete had been laid

Same job we had to run temp water supplies to each floor for the sprays to keep dust down during the demolition so again state of the art spec
inch and a quarte plastic water mains trace heating armour flex lagging and neoprene water proofing
two days later were called back as its leaking like a sieve turns out the labourers had turned of the water and drained it as it was near freezing stats kicked in trace heating came one and melted the pipes

 

[Plouasne]

The job described by Steve (above), is a symptom of to-days age
When I was a junior design engineer for Wheeler Crittal Berry, every drawing that was produced for the plumbing, was sent to every other trade concerned, for approval before being issued to site, as a working drawing, the usual list was Architect, Client, Structural Engineers, Fire services (sprinklers), Electrical, Heating
One job, I had to draw @ 1/4" to 1' was for a range of 3 W/C's with the C/I "float " passing under a deep beam, I started to do a standard centre line only drawing but was told to draw it showing the socket, and spigot with the bead etc, when done this way it worked out that the last pan piece on the run needed the bead to be cut of the pan piece, and this was used as a "soldier" in the socket of the first branch on the float, my senior engineer said its as I thought, they said it would not work
Athenium Court Club in Piccadilly London, all soil stacks in cast iron with copper floats, this was the time of change from imperial to metric, all the different bossed pipes in cast iron were drawn, with a notation that they were to be made for metric sized copper, all the stacks were up when it came time to fit the copper floats, none fitted, because Allied Iron founders had ignored the notation on the drawings and sent out bossed pipes for 4" copper
Later on in life, the triangular island between Colliers wood station and Merton bus garage, was being redeveloped, walking home one night there was water flooding from the site where they had been deep pile drilling, fire brigade was there, water was more than 6" deep over the road, which the fire brigade was trying to pump away, I asked a fireman what had happened, he said that he thought that the pileing rig had hit an underground spring, which was flooding the site, I pointed to the "tomb stone" indicator beside us, saying that I thought that it was the ring main that Thames water had built, then pointed to the draw off station on the opposite side of the road, when that was shut off the flooding stopped

 

[ken quinton]

.All hail the Plumbarii Forum. or Hi Plumbers.

Plumbarii was what the romans called there workers with lead.
Hi Just lead. The bit about the romans. Lead was definitely the downfall of the roman
aristocracy. They used to boil down unfermented grape juice (must) To form a sweet
syrup. But only the rich could afford lead lined bronze pots. the lead added to the sweetness
but resulted in lead poisoning (plumbism).
The poisoning aswell as sending them gaga made the men sterile and the women infertile
and birth defects.
The poor just used bronze pots but these gave off copper rust which spoiled the flavour.
Copper rust turned the wine acid ( vinegar).
----------
To the youngsters out there that think we are a bunch of dinosaurs with out of date
knowhow and skills. i think your great.
you can learn in 6 weeks what took use 20 years.
You know all the new technologies and modern materials (PLASTIC)

How many times have i heard the words "this is the future".
If you youngsters want to know what your future is. look at your past and try learning
something from it, not all buildings are brand new.

From a dinosaur Roofer. or dinosaur Plumbarii

 

[justlead1]

Hi Ken this post has gone on far enough. However one thing i did find interesting, was the result of lead in blood tests carried out by my occupational doctor. On the results coming back we discussed the figures, he was amazed at the data, saying "Having carried out these tests on folk living in major cities who do not work with lead. I am amazed yours is lower" Its either they mixed up the samples or we are all in the brown stuff/ Good Luck

 

[ken quinton]

Hi Just lead i agree long enough.

You can lead a horse to water,
but a church roofs got to be lead.

 

[mark tomlinson]

when getting flame right 1st set pressures on both gases the same and look for the perfect cone in flame picture, if outdoors i tend to tweak the flame slightly to compensate for atmospheric conditions if a damp overcast day, thus giving a clean puddle of molten lead as you make the weld. however this does take years of experience to master especialy if welding vertically in position

 

[Bruceiwish]

i have a micro set lead torch but finding it hard to get a low enough flame heat ?, says in the notes with it pressures down to 0.1 to 0.4 bar, well ive never seen a regulator go down that low its working well out the nominal scope of the reg and it pulses the flame.
i used to do it 30 years ago and want to start again but just cant get low temp, can you advise.
Mick

 

[Ermintrude]

What size torch is it double zero?

 

[Bruceiwish]

Is a model O blowpipe, 0.1 to 0.34 bar & Nozzle start from O - 5
theres not a regukator on earth goes down to this pressure so wonder how everyone else achives it. I use oxyaxetalene by the way.

 

[justlead1]

Hi.
0.1 bar is approx. 1.5 Pound per square inch, 0.34 about 5 psi. It very low pressure using Oxy just hold the nozzle over the back of your hand, turn on you will feel the breeze. Mimic that feeling with Acet. Once happy at even pressures, turn off and on with acet, light it and add oxy until you establish a neutral flame.
Good Luck