Level 3 plumbing and gas courses...

[wetdrip]

Seems to be a bit of a minefield.
My nipper has done all NVQ level 2 except final Gola and booth work.
So it’s starting from scratch, as the above is as good as a chocolate teapot.
The best way forward that I see, is: find a good engineer, be their fetch and carry brush monkey for the first year (LEARN), during that period discuss just what’s the best way forward exam wise. We know Part P is one of the courses to do.
What we’ve learned from using the forum is: too many are too keen to run before they can walk.
Find a good engineer, chill-out and learn from them.
Slow and steady.

 

[newcastle phill]

Gola has now been abolished and something else instead across the whole course instead of final gola

 

[careygambino]

Hi I've only passed the nvql2 tech 6129 I did this In college city of Bristol 2011 but just can't seem to get any further with it and plumbing is what I really want to do in my life. I ring up employers and big firms and they never have anything to offer. What's the best foot path to get up in the plumbing game. I feel gutted I can't do what I enjoy.

 

[Kay101]

The on site evidence isn't really an issue as I work for someone who does all the domestic stuff. Why 2 years do you think????

You could do the 6035 on an evening course then transfer to the 6189

 

[Kay101]

Level 3 does not include full gas. If you are referring to the latest city and guilds 6035 level 3. I just spent nigh on 2 years doing it.
You touch on gas and cover all the principles such as purging, pipe sizing, flueing and ventilation, gas rates and heat input, ntcs, id, , part L etc, G3, vitiation gas controls and spillage testing etc. and the course in general is heavily theory based with no practical worth talking about. I sat 6 gas exam papers which are on file for whatever reason and passed them all. They are however worthless at this point.
They are identical to the ACS papers, and I know that because we had a gas safe lad on our course who was wanting to move into training and be needed his level 3 and teacher training, we picked his brains and he said they were identical.
Also they were adjudicated amongst others by 2 well known gas safe assessors in the north east who take the re-acs etc.
But you would still have to find a placement at the end with a gas engineer and all of the details regarding what aspects of practical gas work undertaken recorded and the final ACS week paid for in addition and sat at further expense (including exam papers)
We did ask what courses follow ours on and they said nothing that they do, just uni.
That was gateshead college.

Im my opinion I am pleased I did the level 3.
We were told, perhaps as you were we would be doing gas and we were led to believe we would be qualified at the end....but we are not qualified at the end lol.
But it depends on the individual, if you want to get into gas quick, then the level 3 is not the fastest route, if you dont mind spending a further 2 years plus studying as I have then thats fine too.
The advantage of the level 3 is that with a year at uni, what I might do at some point, I can convert it into a degree for building services etc.

Cat 2 upskill is for people who hold the full level 2 6189 who are generally wet plumber's. Google it.

Nobody should be led to believe that the 6035 will make you gas safe registered. In fact the 6035 is not aligned to any competence person schemes, contains a unit on furthering your career all for good reason. It is aimed at and for people not working in the industry, to ensure it is fit for purpose and achievable by inexperienced people it doesnt contain content that would be difficult to achieve if not working in the industry. If it did lead to CPS then employers would see it as a shortcut, it doesnt and therefore employers respect it more knowing a candidate has to develop and be assessed further to progress to 6189 or/and ACS

theres no gas practical assessment in 6035 but i would expect learners to do some practical training to help with understanding, then be assessed theory only as foundation knowledge for ACS later should they progress

 

[chris watkins]

Nobody should be led to believe that the 6035 will make you gas safe registered. In fact the 6035 is not aligned to any competence person schemes, contains a unit on furthering your career all for good reason. It is aimed at and for people not working in the industry, to ensure it is fit for purpose and achievable by inexperienced people it doesnt contain content that would be difficult to achieve if not working in the industry. If it did lead to CPS then employers would see it as a shortcut, it doesnt and therefore employers respect it more knowing a candidate has to develop and be assessed further to progress to 6189 or/and ACS

theres no gas practical assessment in 6035 but i would expect learners to do some practical training to help with understanding, then be assessed theory only as foundation knowledge for ACS later should they progress

Seems to me, based on the above, there is very little reason why anyone would want to take the 6035 Level 3 then?
Plumbing & Heating to level 2 without on-site experience I understand but Level 3, it is just not possible to have a full understanding & make sense of the subject without the ability to apply what is being taught to what is seen & done on-site.

 

[Kay101]

Seems to me, based on the above, there is very little reason why anyone would want to take the 6035 Level 3 then?
Plumbing & Heating to level 2 without on-site experience I understand but Level 3, it is just not possible to have a full understanding & make sense of the subject without the ability to apply what is being taught to what is seen & done on-site.

Somebody wanting to learn further skills, develop a deeper understanding, learn new skills will definitely benefit from doing the L3. It contains centre based practical so as with the L2 it does give the learner the prospect of applying knowledge in simulated activities.
This is then a good base line for learners to apply these skills on-site and upgrade to the NVQ Diploma. Its a very good system that benefits learners and employers who wish to take somebody on who has learnt the base knowledge and wishes to build upon it. A very good system when understood, often misrepresented which is a shame.

In future vocational education will play a larger part in post 16 full time education, so centre based learning is here to stay, some people are against it but it wont go away, best to make it work and fit into the apprenticeship and support industry, any amount of personal resentment of these courses will not change government initiatives

In addition, Im not quite sure I follow the reasoning behind this course not being suitable at L3 but thinking L2 is. L2 contains many practical skills where being employed in the industry would be very benficial to help develop those skills, were L3 has more knowledge of systems, regulations and generally more theory than practical. Given that many designers enter at L3 standard (Nat Cert in BSE) and go onto degrees and to design these systems including reference to water regs etc. without any practical experience it suggests L3 is more understandable for a non employed learner than L2.

We have to understand that these are not apprenticeship courses, not claimed to be, not designed to be and serve a different purpose. They are very valuable if used for their intentions

 

[Kay101]

email received from below: I asked if level 2 has to be completed prior.

Dear Paul

Thank you for contacting City & Guilds Customer Services .

If the individual is a competent level 3 candidate then it is possible. This would be the decision making of the college or training centre that one applies to as they will all have their measure of determining whether they can place a learner on a level 3.

Ideally someone would be L2 qualified, it may be in some rare instances that someone is educated and experienced to that level without being qualified, if so and this can be demonstrated then maybe they could go straight to L3?

 

[chris watkins]

Somebody wanting to learn further skills, develop a deeper understanding, learn new skills will definitely benefit from doing the L3 Not half as much as the college nicking the fees off them. It contains centre based practical so as with the L2 it does give the learner the prospect of applying knowledge in simulated activities If you say that is akin to real plumbing, I will believe you.
This is then a good base line for learners to apply these skills on-site and upgrade to the NVQ Diploma. How they going to do that then they will have forgotten 75%+ of what they were taught by the time they get out there. Its a very good system that benefits learners and employers who wish to take somebody on who has learnt the base knowledge and wishes to build upon it. A very good system when understood, often misrepresented which is a shame.

In future vocational education will play a larger part in post 16 full time education, so centre based learning is here to stay, some people are against it but it wont go away, best to make it work and fit into the apprenticeship and support industry, any amount of personal resentment of these courses will not change government initiatives If you say so but that not what I am hearing with the continued drive by government to increase proper apprenticeships.

In addition, Im not quite sure I follow the reasoning behind this course not being suitable at L3 but thinking L2 is. L2 contains many practical skills where being employed in the industry would be very benficial to help develop those skills, were L3 has more knowledge of systems, regulations and generally more theory than practical. Given that many designers enter at L3 standard (Nat Cert in BSE) and go onto degrees and to design these systems including reference to water regs etc. without any practical experience it suggests L3 is more understandable for a non employed learner than L2.

We have to understand that these are not apprenticeship courses, not claimed to be, not designed to be and serve a different purpose. They are very valuable if used for their intentions. Oh but they are aren't they. They try to teach plumbing subjects to the same level as the apprenticeship 6189, so if they got a job in plumbing are they going to sit through it all again, No.
Therefore no apprenticeship & for those that understand learning a Craft, it simple can't be done without work.

Talk about, talking the talk but not understanding walk.
I know now that I made the right move to get out of teaching!
So let me get this straight, your now saying that a Level 3 plumbing course is for designers?

Not been a plumbing apprentice yourself then Kay ?

 

[wetdrip]

Ideally someone would be L2 qualified, it may be in some rare instances that someone is educated and experienced to that level without being qualified, if so and this can be demonstrated then maybe they could go straight to L3?

L2 qualified? Mmmm.
Any kid working full time with a half decent plumber/gas fitter doing various jobs over a 2 month period would be far more qualified than any kid doing the college, "Let's get the hoodies of the streets and keep the dole levels down," Level 2.
Excluding lead work that's a FACT.
Go and ask any level2 to take a photograph of the manifold before you start working on it, and he'll have his head under your vans bonnet.

 

[Kay101]

L2 qualified? Mmmm.
Any kid working full time with a half decent plumber/gas fitter doing various jobs over a 2 month period would be far more qualified than any kid doing the college, "Let's get the hoodies of the streets and keep the dole levels down," Level 2.
Excluding lead work that's a FACT.
Go and ask any level2 to take a photograph of the manifold before you start working on it, and he'll have his head under your vans bonnet.

Not sure of your point, my post was answering who can enter a L3 qualification and is accurate

 

[Kay101]

Talk about, talking the talk but not understanding walk.
If you say so but come on no need to be rude.
I know now that I made the right move to get out of teaching!
So let me get this straight, your now saying that a Level 3 plumbing course is for designers?
Nope, I think it was clear but in case it wasnt L3 contains design at a basic level in addition to commissioning, fault finding etc. In future vocational L3 will have to be comparative with academic L3s
Not been a plumbing apprentice yourself then Kay ? Why do you say this?
Somebody wanting to learn further skills, develop a deeper understanding, learn new skills will definitely benefit from doing the L3 Not half as much as the college nicking the fees off them.
Nicking fees? Learners want to learn, know the facts, understand the advantages and limitations then there is no nicking of fees. To make that kind of statement about all colleges you will need cast iron proof every college nicks fees, then I would recommend you do something about it
It contains centre based practical so as with the L2 it does give the learner the prospect of applying knowledge in simulated activities
If you say that is akin to real plumbing, I will believe you.
Thought I was quite clear that I didnt say it was the same as real plumbing, I think the title gives that away 'simulated'
This is then a good base line for learners to apply these skills on-site and upgrade to the NVQ Diploma. How they going to do that then they will have forgotten 75%+ of what they were taught by the time they get out there. Its a very good system that benefits learners and employers who wish to take somebody on who has learnt the base knowledge and wishes to build upon it. A very good system when understood, often misrepresented which is a shame.
In future vocational education will play a larger part in post 16 full time education, so centre based learning is here to stay, some people are against it but it wont go away, best to make it work and fit into the apprenticeship and support industry, any amount of personal resentment of these courses will not change government initiatives
If you say so but that not what I am hearing with the continued drive by government to increase proper apprenticeship
Your correct Government want to increase the number of apprenticeships, that doesnt affect the drive to increase standards of vocational full time learning, with employers expected to pay more towards apprenticeships in future any Government drive will struggle without funding.In addition, Im not quite sure I follow the reasoning behind this course not being suitable at L3 but thinking L2 is. L2 contains many practical skills where being employed in the industry would be very benficial to help develop those skills, were L3 has more knowledge of systems, regulations and generally more theory than practical. Given that many designers enter at L3 standard (Nat Cert in BSE) and go onto degrees and to design these systems including reference to water regs etc. without any practical experience it suggests L3 is more understandable for a non employed learner than L2.
We have to understand that these are not apprenticeship courses, not claimed to be, not designed to be and serve a different purpose. They are very valuable if used for their intentions.
Oh but they are aren't they. They try to teach plumbing subjects to the same level as the apprenticeship 6189, so if they got a job in plumbing are they going to sit through it all again, No.
They are not the same units so they are not taught to the same level, at level 3 the units are not aligned with CPS so YES they will have to take those units again, therefore securing the skills for fully competent installers/plumbers.
Therefore no apprenticeship & for those that understand learning a Craft, it simple can't be done without work.
In an ideal world all trainees would be employed and we all agree that would benefit learning no end, but the simple fact is we are not in that situation. Many many changes to vocational education, apprenticeships WILL change and so will full time courses
They are not going away so we need to work with them so they benefit the industry

 

[wetdrip]

Not sure of your point, my post was answering who can enter a L3 qualification and is accurate

Hi Kay, what I'm saying is you do not need a piece of paper which states you have level 2 to be able to do level 3.
As I've asked this question to the relevant people, exam setters etc.
Just depends whether or not the college like the cut of your jib IMHO
There's plenty of "plumbers mates" out there, some you can't write too, who most probably know more than some of our new kids on the block

 

[Kay101]

Hi Kay, what I'm saying is you do not need a piece of paper which states you have level 2 to be able to do level 3.
There's plenty of "plumbers mates" out there, some you can't write too, who most probably know more than some of our new kids on the block

Apologies I misunderstood, you are correct, the L3 acknowledges this and if this expereince and knowledge can be proved someone can enter L3 without a L2.

I would be wary though, whilst there are many good plumbers mates out there the knowledge in these courses are demanding and they unlikely to have that foundation knowledge even if they have the skills

Not sure its due to the 'cut of your jib' in fairness they have to demonstrate they have enrolled correctly and prove this with auditable evidence, its not a given and if people think they are at an advnatages by jumping L2 they will realise its an error quite quickly if they dont know as much as they claim

 

[Kay101]

Hi Kay, what I'm saying is you do not need a piece of paper which states you have level 2 to be able to do level 3.
As I've asked this question to the relevant people, exam setters etc.
Just depends whether or not the college like the cut of your jib IMHO
There's plenty of "plumbers mates" out there, some you can't write too, who most probably know more than some of our new kids on the block

who are the exam setters?

 

[basildog]

You have to look at the basics here really ?
What are the entry requirements on to these courses ?
Yes you have got it they are not the type of people who are in line for degree level that is for sure ,It is sad but true that these days everyone has to have some nonsensical title they are no longer plumbers but engineers ,good old labour and it`s policy of equality and how 50 % of the school leavers should be going to university ?????
90% of the population is thick and out of the other 10 % 90% of them have no common sense so we are doomed !!!!

 

[chris watkins]

Kay101, Thanks very much for the "apprenticeship will change" link, very helpful & that is genuine !
I would have had to search for that tomorrow, I have to report back to my company on funding for them in the utilities field, as they have just spent around £1M for 13 of them & received nothing.

So you think I am rude then, well not my intention but often when you have a passion & an understand of all sides of a subject, when you have seen schemes, initiatives & qualifications etc come & go it is difficult not to be forthright in your augment.
Believe you me if it was my intention to be rude you would know about it, comes from working on building sites.

You can argue all you like, you can defend government policy, FE colleges & vocational / post school education of plumbing & apprenticeships, until the cows come home but it does not alter some indisputable trues.
1. Plumbing like most complex craft skills can only be effectively obtained via working on-site & while learning at a training centre at the same time, over a period of around 3-4 years. If you have been through the process you would understand what centuries of plumbers have understood, thats why I asked.
2. Teaching plumbing at anything over level 1 in a college & then expecting students to repeat the process if they are lucky enough to get an Job (or apprenticeship) is just not going to happen, would you want to do that ? If you have learnt plumbing theory why would you do it again because some at a college said it wasn't "fully alined" & is your employer going to wear loosing you for a day to do that.?
3. If you except point 1. Apprenticeships are the best way to learn plumbing, then why would we as tax payers want to support teaching young people something at college that they will not get employment at, what a waste of money but more important their young lives !!!!
Why would we not want to support small companies, who make up the vast amount of the building industry in filling vacancy for real jobs at the time they are needed.

An ideal world? more like an understanding of what is required to still have a industry fit for the future changes, in a world without a lot of tax money to spend.

I think that will be my last words on it Kay.

 

[wetdrip]

who are the exam setters?

I contacted C&G. It was their reply I pasted on this thread.

 

[wetdrip]

I, like many parents have been in a situation where we take a great interest in just what level of skill, knowledge and experience our kids will come away with when doing the level2 course, and I can assure you that the level of commitment by certain colleges toward their student’s progress will and does vary.

I can painfully remember one occasion where my nipper came home despondent as there had been a gas leakage on one of the main pipes in the classes working environment/room.

The college head came down and informed the whole class that no pupil in that class would be put forward for employment if an employer did contact that college looking for a potential apprentice to employ…that was week one of the course.
One or two students wanted to quit the course there and then. The same pipe leaked again and the students were blamed.
They were informed that the CCTV would be looked at and the culprit apprehended. No-one was ever apprehended. Enough said.
Imagine being stuck in that class!

Level2’s good for confidence building, where students can grasp the very basics: Lead work, tooling, soldering and basic bends, but, it’s no good without experience

Having looked at the Level3 book, I like it, as it shows a whole new aspect of just what’s required in the real world in terms of systems and system design etc. something that isn’t touched in Level2.

Can a person go straight to, or be allowed to go to level 3 without first doing level 2; IMHO, if and only if they’ve gained good hands-on practical experience working with a decent engineer.
Think Chris hit the nail on the head, when he used the word passion.

A passion needs to be cultivated in any kid looking to forward their vocation.
Perhaps too many kids just see it as a means to a wage at the end of the week, and I’m glad I’m not a kid growing up in today’s society.

There was a recent post on here placed by a guest. The guest asked why his taps (ceramic discs) just wouldn’t stop dripping. Some replied: change the cartridge and be done, but TAMZ replied: check your water pressure as it may be low and ceramics need more pressure to close properly. Experience at its best, which very few, if any, class only apprentices would have known about.

 

[newcastle phill]

My college from a while ago stated no level 3 unless level 2 completed 1st.
They said as its modular it was imposible for city and guilds to issue cert for full 3 without full 2.
They said cg check on walled garden.
So although it may well be possible to sign up you cant complete the full qual until done in sequence.

 

[wetdrip]

My college from a while ago stated no level 3 unless level 2 completed 1st.
They said as its modular it was imposible for city and guilds to issue cert for full 3 without full 2.
They said cg check on walled garden.
So although it may well be possible to sign up you cant complete the full qual until done in sequence.

Hi Phil, here's the actaul reply recieved from C & G.
Dear Paul

Thank you for contacting City & Guilds Customer Services .

"If the individual is a competent level 3 candidate then it is possible. This would be the decision making of the college or training centre that one applies to as they will all have their measure of determining whether they can place a learner on a level 3."

Like they say, it's down to the college.
Colleges looking to make more money perhaps...don't know.
C & G seem to be okay with it, according to their reply anyway?

 

[Jules]

There was a recent post on here placed by a guest. The guest asked why his taps (ceramic discs) just wouldn’t stop dripping. Some replied: change the cartridge and be done, but TAMZ replied: check your water pressure as it may be low and ceramics need more pressure to close properly. Experience at its best, which very few, if any, class only apprentices would have known about.[/QUOTE]

I've only done the 6035 Level 2, and I knew this - does this mean the course is OK after all, or am I just a genius, lol - !?
PS - Went to a house today where toilet draining away very slowly. Homeserve had jetted the drains (twice, a month apart), and informed the lady of the house she needed a plumber to unbox and dismantle the internal soil pipe "as it must be blocked somewhere". Subsequent plumber agreed and quoted her £850. Next plumber changed the flush valve (...?.)
I changed the AAV in the loft - job done. I wonder if the 4 previous plumbers did the 6035 or the 6189, ......hmmmm...interesting.....???

 

[chris watkins]

As we keep on saying time and again Jules, a piece of paper, does not a plumber make !!!!

It does help though, combine this with we never stop learning, (I didn't know that about ceramic discs) & experience over time & you will be getting close to what is required.

(BTW My monies on the 6035 LOL) :santa3:

 

[Jules]

As we keep on saying time and again Jules, a piece of paper, does not a plumber make !!!!

It does help though, combine this with we never stop learning, (I didn't know that about ceramic discs) & experience over time & you will be getting close to what is required.

(BTW My monies on the 6035 LOL) :santa3:

I agree, but it makes me cross that little old ladies have to part with a month's pension just to find out that the piece of paper may as well have been used to wipe their backside. :32:

 

[basildog]

There was a recent post on here placed by a guest. The guest asked why his taps (ceramic discs) just wouldn’t stop dripping. Some replied: change the cartridge and be done, but TAMZ replied: check your water pressure as it may be low and ceramics need more pressure to close properly. Experience at its best, which very few, if any, class only apprentices would have known about.

I've only done the 6035 Level 2, and I knew this - does this mean the course is OK after all, or am I just a genius, lol - !?
PS - Went to a house today where toilet draining away very slowly. Homeserve had jetted the drains (twice, a month apart), and informed the lady of the house she needed a plumber to unbox and dismantle the internal soil pipe "as it must be blocked somewhere". Subsequent plumber agreed and quoted her £850. Next plumber changed the flush valve (...?.)
I changed the AAV in the loft - job done. I wonder if the 4 previous plumbers did the 6035 or the 6189, ......hmmmm...interesting.....???[/QUOTE]

Oh to be young again !
AAV to me I always think of an automatic air vent !
Unless they say Durgo then I get it !!!!!! Duh time to have a nap I think ?