Mr Wilsons full system build

[Howsie]

hea howsie...

i did look into UFH but with a house this size and age to do UFH could be a lot more work, cost a lot more than rads and uncover a lot more unseen issues.
id have to pull up floors (this room is the only floor that needed to be replaced) lay screeds and the extra weight of the screeds may effect the old joists.
i think there may be complications with all the extra pumps and zoning may create a headache for me and im far more confident with running rads myself than full house UFH. but i think it comes down to time i like UFH i think for its thermal benefits and it certainly adds value to the property but the extra time and cost to lay it makes it not so attractive a direction for me.
Im still in talks with the wife if we do UFH in both bathrooms but the problem come up with the screed weight and the lift height transition between hallways and bathrooms.

will have to see im nearly finished the 2nd bedroom and next will be main bathroom

I'd have gone for UFH. Cheaper to run in the long run, a much more comfortable and very easy to control and feed via multiple heat sources; Heat pump, boiler etc.

Hey ho.

 

[Mr Wilson]

I'd have gone for UFH. Cheaper to run in the long run, a much more comfortable and very easy to control and feed via multiple heat sources; Heat pump, boiler etc.

Hey ho.

howsie do you have an older place or did ya build new? i would prefer UFH i think its the best option if possible.
i think if we had a more modern type house ie concrete slab floors and not dirt clay and grass reeds , id look into it more seriously but this is a 200 year old building with about 300sqm of floor ... to put in UFH into this place becomes a pretty big job. i did also look into solar panels and IR ( infared panels ) for its thermal heating benefits much the same as UFH. but solar technology isnt quite developed enough to offset the setup cost.

 

[Howsie]

howsie do you have an older place or did ya build new? i would prefer UFH i think its the best option if possible.
i think if we had a more modern type house ie concrete slab floors and not dirt clay and grass reeds , id look into it more seriously but this is a 200 year old building with about 300sqm of floor ... to put in UFH into this place becomes a pretty big job. i did also look into solar panels and IR ( infared panels ) for its thermal heating benefits much the same as UFH. but solar technology isnt quite developed enough to offset the setup cost.

I and the company I own have done them all. UFH would have been my choice based on what I've read. Large floor surfaces plead for UFH as it gives a lovely even warmth.

I'd have a word with the plumber who designed it for you to ask why he preferred rads. What's done is done.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I and the company I own have done them all. UFH would have been my choice based on what I've read. Large floor surfaces plead for UFH as it gives a lovely even warmth.

I'd have a word with the plumber who designed it for you to ask why he preferred rads. What's done is done.

He's designed and installed it him self

 

[Howsie]

Have you done heat loss calculations for the property?

 

[Mr Wilson]

Have you done heat loss calculations for the property?

yup used a few calculators that i found here on the forum ... and im not fully designing it myself as i used the infomation i got from my plumber who will install and connect the boiler and gas. at this stage all im doing myself is chase walls install rads and run mains to and from boiler. id probably take a wack at the boiler if i was living in india or china somewhere but being in germany with regulators ect and being that it needs gas connection im gonna have the pros do that.

 

[Howsie]

Good for you!

Looking at your diagrams, pictures and description of the building fabric those rads look on the small side.

 

[Mr Wilson]

cheers mate ... ya that would be a little unfortunate if the rads are undersized. in saying that the rad that we just installed in the picture are the smallest of then rads we had planed for bedrooms. i dont know too much about heating houses myself coming from australia in which were trying to achieve the opposite staying cool thus relying of info from others ie our plumber whom seems to say that bedrooms stay around 18C and therefore require smaller rads as oppose to living spaces which require much larger ones. i believe the biggest we have are about 2 meters long.

Sorry about the lack of updated plans .. but rads on plans are not to scale just rectangles to show location and for general zoning planing also not updated. also plans do not show the wood stoves that are on every floor ... this winter we havent had any heating other than the wood heaters and other than the daily chore of chopping wood we stayed walm.
but thanks for the thoughts i guess well see and have to make adjustments if things arent sufficient.

 

[Mr Wilson]

just did a few more heat loss calculations and it seems depending on the calculator i require 2476BTUs or 725w and that was based on an external wall thickness of 250mm ( thickest solid wall option available) our walls are 600mm... this calculator has alot of input info

the 2nd calculator had only a few variables and gave me 5000Bts or 1700w

i just looked at the rating of the smaller rad in picture and at 30% it produces 700w at 50% 1500w and max 2400w

so i guess it could be a little on the low side and if thats the case ill have to enlarge it and again cheers for bringing that to my attention ill certainly be looking out for that next winter.

 

[Howsie]

Here is your answer: CIBSE - Domestic Heating - Design Guide 2015 (Domestic Building Services Panel)

 

[Mr Wilson]

cheers mate looking in to it now

 

[Mr Wilson]

Mr Wilson is Back ... its been a while since ive last posted as german summer sent me and the house reno outdoors but winters approaching fast and its all plumbing now ...

So for an update ive inslutated the roof and almost sheeted it up and now lifting up the old OSB flooring to lay pipework and create a room for the gas burner (viessman 222-F combi ) ... just finnished prepping a space for our gas tank to be brought on site whcih is about 25m away from the house so i gotta dig a 700mm trench for the pipework from the tank to the house than im running it up the wall about 10 m to the attic space.

good news on the plumber front he seems happy to work with me and basically just do a paid labor job and i source all my own parts and materials as the cuts down my cost dramatically. Like the burner i can buy direct for about 3k but through him its closer to 3400 Euros. so ill save myself a few thousand this way.

i got a few questions like recommended sizes of pumps and general layout so i can get all materials ready but ill taks some updated pics which will help discribe where im at .

will report back soon .

 

[Mr Wilson]

So first bedroom is now complete here is some process pics

 

[Mr Wilson]

so next question ive got is size of my pumps for the system.. in short im splitting the house into 2 zones so will need 2 pumps that run aproxx 10ish rads each ... is there a calculator to determine size of pumps needed...

cheers

 

[oz-plumber]

Yes Mr Wilson,

Done the calculations for you.

Grab a couple of Grundfos UPS 25- 60 Pumps. ( or equivalent )
They are 6 meter head pumps with a 3 speed controller.

If they don't work, you have stuffed up your pipe sizing.

Cheers

 

[Riley]

Who has done your system design by the way?

 

[Mr Wilson]

Yes Mr Wilson,

Done the calculations for you.

Grab a couple of Grundfos UPS 25- 60 Pumps. ( or equivalent )
They are 6 meter head pumps with a 3 speed controller.

If they don't work, you have stuffed up your pipe sizing.

Cheers

cheers mate was looking at these guess i was on the right track... is one of these really better than the other?



also saw this one same pump i think but more simple programing but also cheaper


piping size is 20mm through the whole house. and i was working of a piping design that was with a plumber when i first got me original quotes. its slightly changed now as ive found a shorter path and the location of the burner has moved . i should modify the plan accordingly. ill have my plumber go over everything next week when he lays the gas pipe next week.

should also mention pulled this of the manufacture of the 3/4 pex pipe im using

Pressure Drop Considerations

In general, the greater the distance from the manifold to the fixture, the wider the PEX tubing should be. A 3/8-inch line is sufficient for lengths up to 250 feet; 1/2-inch line will deliver adequate water pressure up to 350 feet; and 3/4-inch tubing is necessary to run a 500-foot line.

 

[tolly]

cheers mate was looking at these guess i was on the right track... is one of these really better than the other?

View attachment 27240

also saw this one same pump i think but more simple programing but also cheaper
View attachment 27241

piping size is 20mm through the whole house. and i was working of a piping design that was with a plumber when i first got me original quotes. its slightly changed now as ive found a shorter path and the location of the burner has moved . i should modify the plan accordingly. ill have my plumber go over everything next week when he lays the gas pipe next week.

should also mention pulled this of the manufacture of the 3/4 pex pipe im using

Pressure Drop Considerations

In general, the greater the distance from the manifold to the fixture, the wider the PEX tubing should be. A 3/8-inch line is sufficient for lengths up to 250 feet; 1/2-inch line will deliver adequate water pressure up to 350 feet; and 3/4-inch tubing is necessary to run a 500-foot line.

Mr Wilson, it is worth doing these calculations properly, pay someone to do them for you or buy a copy of domestic heating design guide, the CIBSE one. It will probably save you money aswell, as from what you have described I would be very surprised if those pumps were needed. Domestic 15-50 type circulators should suffice.

I presume you are having a Low Loss Header installed aswell then?
Secondary expansion vessel for heating aswell?

 

[Riley]

So the design you have is from a plumber who you didn't give the work to?

 

[rpm]

Mr Wilson is Back ..

good news on the plumber front he seems happy to work with me and basically just do a paid labor job and i source all my own parts and materials as the cuts down my cost dramatically. Like the burner i can buy direct for about 3k but through him its closer to 3400 Euros. so ill save myself a few thousand this way.

You do realise why he is happy don`t you? As the labourer all the risks are on you if it goes pear shaped. All up to you to contact various suppliers and manufactures and nowt to do with him.

 

[Mr Wilson]

Ok so to recap

i need to have installed a full heating system into our house of which ive never done other than basic copper and pex pipework fittings ect. I have to work with a plumber who i cannot communicate with easily due to language barriers and i have limited resources which forces me to do as much of the work myself and to purchase as much fittings and materials as i can which saves me a fortune up to 1/3 of the total build price and yes i will be taking all responsibility for any malfunctioning part in the system.
All gas connections and fittings to boiler and any other plumbing that is beyond my abilities im happy to pay my plumber who i even organized to do the main connection from the gas tank to the house which would usually be done by the gas tank suppliers own fitters to try and get my plumber more work.

the build itself should be reasonably simple with DHW to 2 bathrooms ( no kitchens ) we have 8 rooms 2 bathrooms and 2 hallways that need to be heated all with Rads which i have been collecting for the last year from various locations and so half i purchased new and the others are second handers that i got either cheap or free. if the rads are undersized or in some way malfunctioning than ill replace as needed and as finances permits.

im be chasing in all walls and laying all internal circuits through out the house working off some initial planning i did with a different plumber i had first contacted but was not gas certified but only installed oil burners so he referd me to the plumber i currently am working with. So apart of my planning process is to gather as much understanding of the build with the help of this forum so than i can better work with my plumber as to what i can and cannot do. And to reiterate due to finance limitations im having to take the risks associated with sourcing my own parts and requiring a plumbers services as skilled laborer not a retailer.

So the build can be split up into 2 parts the internal house circuits made up of 2 zones the DHW to 2 bathrooms that are directly above each other and installation of radiators in rooms. The other part is the installation and connection of the gas burner and the pipework and fittings of pumps, valves, Pressure relief valves, low loss header if needed ect ect.


In regards to these 2 projects im rather competent to do the chasing and fitting of all internal pipe work and rad connections. Although id admit confirmation with the zone layouts and loads would be appreciated if i could confirm that with folks here before showing my plumber. Again due to the language barrier id like to have some forsight on possible issues that i dont see before having to waste my plumbers time.

As to the boiler connection id like to do as much as the layout as i can so that all my plumber would need to do is connect all connections to the boiler. problem is with this is that id need Knowledge help with the design layout And all parts required to complete the job. Which brings me back to the communication problem i have with my plumber and why if like to be as infoed and pre planned as i can be before i go over this with him. than i can better understand what i can realistically do myself and what i should leave for him.

i hope this helps in understanding my situation. And any any all help in furthering my understanding would be and is greatly appreciated. Even if i end up doing less work myself im happy to pay my plumber for his time. where i really save the money is in the parts and fittings so being informed about system design and possible options is really where this forum can save me and bring me in budget. Also i understand many tradies spend a lot of energy and time to learn their craft and it can be a tricky thing working with a plumber and asking for advice that is in the best interest of the client (DIYer) over a bigger payout for the tradie. Hence why forums like this exist and is a great recourse to Those who wanna give it a crack themselves.

 

[Mr Wilson]

This is the unit im planning on getting



if i get the unit off the plumber id have to downgrade to his unit and pay about 500Euros more



im thinking it would also require more labor do it more components needing to be installed.

in terms of my connections to the boiler and looking at the owners manual to the 222-F id be heading in this direction



this does require a low loss header with the addition of having 2 heating zones requiring 2 pumps. And its this part of the build that id like to understand better to know what i can do myself and what i leave to me plumber although i still need to know what parts i require to purchase.

what i would like to understand

what i understand

attached image is the house layout trying to balance the load between rads and distance granted the travel distance of zone 1 is about 15m more to get to the otherside of the house but was thinking about connecting the hallway rads to zone 2 not 1

So there would be 7 rads minimum on zone 1 with a furthest travel distance of about 40 m to rads and 40m return

Zone 2 has a minimum of 9 rads with about 30m of travel distance but this is offset with having to serve 2 bathrooms which will need to be at a higher temperature

perhaps the logic is incorrect and no heat is losed in travel distance but is is the shortest routes currently avaliable . would love it if anyone has comments on this before i try and take to my plumber to confirm.

 

[SimonG]

You want to save money but gone for calor. Interesting.

 

[Mr Wilson]

You want to save money but gone for calor. Interesting.

if by calor you mean gas? than yes... here in germany they just brought out new regulations on new heating installations which basically eliminates using any second hand burner older than 4 years or close to. i actually have a near new viessman oil burner that was only used for 4 years and than stored for 6 years think it cost over 10k but due to job creation policies ( cough ) i mean governmental "green" policies im unable to use it.
so for new installs my oil burner option was almost 3x what a gas burner is setup wise ... yes gas costs more than oil and mabye over 30 years id saved my money. but who knows enery prices are a fickle thing and after the next great big war who knows which energy system will cost less. heck in 10 years they probally have figured out fusion tech and we will be running heating systems of that.

so this is why gas over oil the 1/3 start up costs...

 

[ShaunCorbs]

think he means lpg as calor round the uk is a dealer for lpg gas