New boiler - who should I believe?

[edna clouds]

I'm hoping someone out there will be able to give me some sound advice. I've recently bought a small 3-bed (is 6"x7" really a bedroom?) det house complete with its original 1970 central heating system. Cue a new boiler. But I've been given three conflicting pieces of advice by the heating engineers who've been asked to advise and quote. A bit of background: the current garage is being converted to provide an extra room and a shower room, only two of us will live in the house, it's in a hard water area, I've had combi boilers for the last 30 years so wouldn't miss an airing cupboard.

Quote 1 recommends flushing but leaving the original single pipe system in the house, replacing a couple of downstairs radiators, adding twin pipes and rads in the conversion, installing a Worcester Greenstar 30Si and an electric shower in the new shower room. His visit consisted of him asking what I wanted, offered very little advice and is the most expensive by far but he does come highly recommended.

Quote 2 recommends removing the entire current system, installing a new twin pipe system with new rads (replacing current 2 with 1 in each of lounge and kitchen/diner), TRVs, wireless room thermostat, Ideal logic + 30 boiler, towel rails in bathroom and shower room, electric shower as above. He was very proactive and informative. And considerably cheaper!

No 3 mainly sucked his teeth, stated that he wouldn't install a combi if it was his house and told me I needed a pressurized system. He's yet to provide a quote.

I know the Ideal boiler is cheaper than the Worcester but is one better than the other? Or would something else be better still?
I'm thinking No 2 is talking more sense than No 1 but what do I know?

Confused....... but hopeful.......

 

[Blake]

Quote 2 sounds the way to go to me using the info you have provided. I would however consider:

1. having a shower that is run by the new combi, or at least make provision for the possibility of having one fitted later whilst getting the shower room done. Or as crazy as it seems, have both, that way you will have a better shower with the one off the combi whilst having the electric as a back up just in case the boiler ever broke down.

2. Ensure a Magnaclean or other magnetic filter is fitted with the new boiler

3. Every installer has his/her personal preference when it comes to boilers. Do a little research on google yourself, I personally don't like Ideal boiler, Worcesters are good, but have many plastic parts and can be a pain to work on. You could perhaps look at a Baxi Duotec which has a 7 year warranty on it now.

 

[Mike Jackson]

I would prefer Ideal over Worcester at the moment but my boilers of choice are Atag or Intergas.

 

[Plumb Ugly]

Definatley get it repiped to a 2 pipe system leaving it as a 1 pipe when your going to the expense and disruption of a new boiler would be non sense! If you have room get a pressuried cylinder and a new boiler rather than a combi I doubt you would regret it! However as said before you could do a combi and have one or more electric showers as a back up. Both the worcester and ideal are good boilers with long warranties although I prefer the ideal as no plastic in it which sometimes fails and springs a leak. As above the baxi duo tec is worth a look think they had some teething issues with it (clever new type of gas valve or other) but should be all good now

 

[Heat Kent]

Option two but run the shower off the combi – We mostly fit Ideal boilers and don’t get any problems with them. I think boilers are a bit like cars, think of Ideal as a cheap, reliable ford that’s easy/cheap to repair and other more expensive boilers as BMWs, dearer to buy, no more reliable and expensive to fix. You do get the added bonus of a 5 year warrantee if you get a Worcester accredited installer (not sure if Ideal have an accreditation scheme)? If it was my house I would maybe look at under floor heating in the new conversion and installing a water softener too?

 

[TBServices]

As above, I'd definitely go for an ideal over worcester, definitely get re-piped and chances are, if your radiators are on a one pipe system, chances are they're quite old, sludged up and inefficient. Is you go for a complete new system, you know it's clean and if sufficiently protected, should stay that way. You also seem more positive about the second fellow.

Also, get a proper shower fitted. Wouldn't have an electric shower in my house.

 

[edna clouds]

Thanks for the replies, very helpful.

I'm still not 100% clear whether a combi is the way to go, especially as one reply says get a pressurised cylinder.

I'm definitely inclined to replace the whole system, that seems to be obviously the way to go.

I'd love to put underfloor heating in the conversion but the pennies aren't going to stretch that far :disappointed:.

Re the shower, will a combi be ok for delivering water to it (downstairs) as well as the upstairs bathroom and kitchen? I don't want either to suddenly run cold if the other is used hence the suggestion of installing an electric shower. And what's the advantage of a "proper" shower over an electric one?

Thanks chaps, any more advice out there?

 

[gasmanrob]

Quote 2 and ideal give a five year warranty on the logic no accreditation scheme required. Even if you fit 1 thermostatic and 1 electric shower there is a risk of the thermostatic going cold if the electric shower comes on as you are still drawing mains water away from the combi boiler to feed the shower it all depends on flow rates, pipe sizes, pipe runs and available pressure

 

[dancinplumba]

quote two, but as mike jackson says, intergas, but need to measure your flow rate and pressure of your mains water before deciding on shower, its good to have thermostatic and an electric one, thermostatic one wont go cold when electric one on but the flow to both will be reduced. If your flow and pressure is good you wont have problems.You will get a better shower experience with combi fed shower, electric ones just trickle

 

[Rob Sale]

With the Ideal logic you can pay an extra £100 to make the warranty upto 7yrs but you might as aswell go for the Ideal vogue which comes with 7yrs warranty as standard.

 

[TBServices]

With the Ideal logic you can pay an extra £100 to make the warranty upto 7yrs but you might as aswell go for the Ideal vogue which comes with 7yrs warranty as standard.

Wrong! It's way more than £100 extra to buy a vogue and I was VERY disappointed with the HW performance, even more so now, since I fitted a logic on Monday and the difference was very noticeable.

If you're having the whole house re-piped, try to find a spot for a cylinder and have unvented installed.

 

[edna clouds]

2. Ensure a Magnaclean or other magnetic filter is fitted with the new boiler

Missed this yesterday, off to google it now....

 

[edna clouds]

Thanks for all the help. Mr No 2 with his Ideal boiler seems to be the way to go. I'll talk to him about the type of shower in the new room.

If you have room get a pressuried cylinder and a new boiler rather than a combi I doubt you would regret it!

If you're having the whole house re-piped, try to find a spot for a cylinder and have unvented installed.

Could someone explain why this is a better option please? I understood that a combi is cheaper to run and the lack of tanks reduced the risk of leaks, and was ok for a small house.

 

[Plumb Ugly]

The hot water flow rate from a combi boiler is adequate at best maybe 15 litres a min if you have a 30 odd kw because it has to heat the hot water as you use it and can only cope with so much per minute. Compare this to an unvented cylinder and you can sometimes get as much as 40 litres a min. This is all dependant on your mains pressure and flow though so would need checking out first. Also your boiler breaks so no heating but you have a cylinder with an immersion heater so at least you can still have hot water

 

[Ray Stafford]

Could someone explain why this is a better option please? I understood that a combi is cheaper to run and the lack of tanks reduced the risk of leaks, and was ok for a small house.

There isn't a "right" answer for all applications.

In the OP you said that you had lived with a combi for 30 years, so you know the main drawback - they put out a finite amount of hot water, and even the best of them don't cope very well with 2 outlets running, and filling a bath can be slow. There is also the downside that both hot water and heating depend on the same appliance, so if it breaks down, you have no back-up hot water. (With a cylinder, you can always fall back on the immersion heater if the boiler breaks down).

However, if there are just the two of you, and you don't care that you can't run two outlets concurrently, and prefer to shower rather than bathe, and are prepared to cope with the odd breakdown, then it doesn't matter very much - a combi uses least space, least pipework and is usually the cheapest option.

Its a bit like asking "whats the best car?" - the answer has to be "it depends on what you want it for".

Like most things in life, we end up with a compromise. Unfortunately, no one makes a car that seats 7, parks easily, does 80mpg, 0-60 in 4 secs, comes with a 7yr warranty and only costs £8k. You can buy cars with any one of these features, but not all of them in the same package. You have to decide which is important to you, and with your heating a good installer will listen to your needs and recommend an appropriate boiler/system to suit your priorities and budget.

 

[petercj]

Edna I think you're wonderful!

You're not just throwing money at the first gas fitter that comes along with a cheap price and a bit of charm - good for you!

I like the sound of plumber number 2 out of the three you mention, but even so, doing some research based on whatever suggestions you get is always a good idea imo.

It's your money, and you will have to live with the consequences of the decisions you make - which hopefully, will lead to a happy and warm experience.

If more consumers took responsibility for their decision-making in the way that you obviously are, there were would be less junk floating around the market place.

My two-penneth, if your budget will cover it, is to recommend a Vaillant boiler with a 7 year warranty. Not the cheapest, but it's a top brand, and with that kind of warranty you can't go far wrong. Because some Vaillants are prone to problems caused by dirty systems, fitting a filter is really a must.

The role of a filter is explained here - this the best animated video on heating filters I've ever come across. The filter has been designed and produced by a heating engineer, and I know he's given a great deal of thought to making his filter one of the best around - it's very competitively priced too.

trappex | advanced magnetic and non-magnetic particle filter

Whichever boiler you go for, try and aim for a long warranty - at least 5 years, but 7 if possible.

Also, make sure that all of the terms and conditions of the warranty are met when the boiler is fitted - you should be able to find manufacturer's T&Cs on their website. If not, email them and request. When the boiler has been fitted it will need commissioning (testing and checking of certain things) and there should be some documentation filled out by the engineer to confirm that various things have been done. Such documentation provides good evidence of various requirements if you need to make a claim on the warranty.

There are website with the pro's and cons of different types of boilers and systems available on the net - google will find.

You might ask why every gas engineer doesn't have a link to such sites on their own websites, and I can't answer that question. I think it might be because they drink too much, and while away their time on the Internet discussing TV programs, what are the best crisps, and bragging about the fact they have a Land Rover!

If by any chance you have a Land Rover Edna, you'll never be short of a friend on here!

On the subject of wireless room thermostats, I do like them, and used in the right way they can make a serious difference to gas bills. But they are not the most reliable bits of kit to live with, as the people on this forum who fit them will tell you. So if you don't have a service contract that covers your controls, be prepared to suffer the cost of replacing any unit you might have fitted. Some do have a 2 year warranty. It's swings and roundabouts, i.e. they can help to reduce gas bills if used with some thought and planning, but they can be troublesome.

You will be parting with a substantial amount of money, so ask the person fitting the boiler to explain anything that you are not sure about.

There comes a point when a 'leap of faith' is required, and you put yourself in the hands of the engineer, but doing the research you are doing should guide you towards the right pair of hands.

Good on you, and good luck with the final choices you make.

 

[Centralheatking]

You will get conflicting advice about ........................
1. Which type of system to choose a. Combi type b. System type
2. Then which type of boiler to power it
3. Or keep whats there

ALL the advice on here is given honestly by experienced installers who will have their
opinions based on their practical knowledge gained over many years.


I would choose a local company - get a few phone numbers of their customers
and give them a call. Do not go for BG they are 2/3x anybody elses price.


Some outfits only advise Combi boilers because thats all they fit and the only thing i would
advise is have a system boiler as they have reliable hot water flow rates if you like a bath
but are more expensive to install but last longer
........if you are in West Lancashire then I will help you choose

And if you have about £3000 rip out the old system

centralheatking

 

[TBServices]

Only people who would advise a combi over unvented are either A: lazy or B: not qualified to install unvented.

 

[edna clouds]

Edna I think you're wonderful!

Aw, I think you're wonderful too :wink5:

I'm not in West Lancs unfortunately Centralheatking, a couple of hundred miles south.

Thanks for the advice chaps, time to talk to No 2 again and make some decisions.

 

[AmritPedersen]

Only people who would advise a combi over unvented are either A: lazy or B: not qualified to install unvented.

Actually, that's a somewhat lazy posting.

What if client doesn't have the space for the unvented cylinder? Lots of flats in Brighton with not enough storage space so a combi could be ideal.

What if getting the discharge out is impractical? I've had that. Airing cupboard in the middle of a small flat with parket flooring.

Have a customer with 4 bed, 2 bathroom semi. New boiler in converted garage. I argued for an unvented, as they had the pressure & flow rate to make it viable, but they really, really wanted a combi. 3 years later they are still happy with the 35kw Viessmann Vitodens 200 I installed. They take turns in showering. Simples.

This is my long winded way of saying, advise the client as best as you can, taking into account all the relevant information (including customer preference).

 

[TBServices]

Actually, that's a somewhat lazy posting.

What if client doesn't have the space for the unvented cylinder? Lots of flats in Brighton with not enough storage space so a combi could be ideal.

What if getting the discharge out is impractical? I've had that. Airing cupboard in the middle of a small flat with parket flooring.

Have a customer with 4 bed, 2 bathroom semi. New boiler in converted garage. I argued for an unvented, as they had the pressure & flow rate to make it viable, but they really, really wanted a combi. 3 years later they are still happy with the 35kw Viessmann Vitodens 200 I installed. They take turns in showering. Simples.

This is my long winded way of saying, advise the client as best as you can, taking into account all the relevant information (including customer preference).

I fit more combis than anything else because either a, that's what is there already, b, it suits the application, or c, the customer cannot be swayed from having a combi. If that's the case then their decision has nothing to do with my recommendation.

In this instance, it sounds like the OP has room for a cylinder and has been advised that it would be the best solution. Thankfully she seems open to suggestion.

The fact is, the combi has led to a breed of plumber who doesn't actually understand CH System layouts and controls. They wouldn't know where to fit a pump or how to balance rads. Get one of these guys in your house and you'll end up with a combi, whether its suitable or not.

 

[Centralheatking]

Come on Edna do tell us what you have decided as its the feedback that makes this forum good

Aw, I think you're wonderful too :wink5:

I'm not in West Lancs unfortunately Centralheatking, a couple of hundred miles south.

Thanks for the advice chaps, time to talk to No 2 again and make some decisions.

 

[edna clouds]

Come on Edna do tell us what you have decided as its the feedback that makes this forum good

I will, I will.
I left a message for No 2 on Friday morning letting him know he was the front runner but that I had a couple of questions for him before we firmed up on the job but have heard nothing since. I can only hope he's having a nice weekend and will be in touch Monday morning.....

 

[edna clouds]

All decided, happy Edna here, job booked with No 2.
Existing system is being ripped out completely, new 2 pipe system being installed; Ideal logic + 30 boiler plus magnetic filter; new shower to run off combi. I just have to introduce him to Bob the Builder (yes really, his name is Bob) so they can work out the finer details of who's doing what when and choose my towel rail.

Thanks for all the replies, I'll be back to let you know if I'm still smiling in a few weeks.

Next task is to work out just how little space I can fit a usable shower room into (small garage extension with wonky walls being converted) and conclude the tanking versus shower tray debate..... I may well see you over on the wet room forum....

 

[TBServices]

Top stuff Edna, keep us informed of your progress! It's nice to see the payoff sometimes!