New CH system underpowered/ wrong layout?

[chris watkins]

Very interesting. Does this mean just the heating output and not the hot water heating rate can be downrated?

Yes ......

 

[vern]

Very interesting. Does this mean just the heating output and not the hot water heating rate can be downrated?

Correct get your installer back......

 

[Alex100]

Many many thanks to all those helpful posts - and good to see people enjoy what they do too. In response to request for sizes, here are room sizes.


Room size examples:

Lounge - 3.45m x 4.25m x 2.5m high, two external walls of 18inch stone & rubble, 3.2m of double glazed and draughtproofed sash, timber floor with space beneath. In here he has placed a Stelrad K2 compact (450 x 1200mm) which gives about 5615 BTU

Dining - 3.45m x 4.2m x 2.5m high, one external wall, one single glazed window into the conservatory (so not really a window). In here a compact stelrad K2, slightly smaller, 450mm x 1100mm, giving about 5100 BTU

Kitchen - I wanted to get a rad and the installer didn't calculate what I'd need. I got a vertical semi designer thing from B&Q (i know, i know, but it was a weak moment) giving 2800 BTU. Looks alright but gurgles if turn TVR up beyond 3. Kitchen is 2.7m wide x 5m long x 2.2m high, one small double glazed window, one external wall (short side) and one wall has a door and window into the conservatory (antarctica).

Conservatory - a few installers who quoted suggested not trying to fully heat the conservatory but I though to put something in at least to take the edge off the cold. I suggested something under the interior window, so he put Stelrad K2, 300mm x 1500mm giving 5026 BTU. It's 2m x 5m long, and over 3m on high side. Also, that rad is teed off the dining room rad flow & return, not from the main flow/return circuit.

Hall & upstairs landings - incl stairs it's about 15 to 16 m long (horizontally) x 0.9m wide x 2.5 m ceiling. No outside walls (just party walls) or windows. There is one K1 downstairs (600mm x 11000mm = 3678 BTU) and one upstairs (600mm x 900mm giving 3009 BTU)

Master bed - 4.35m wide x 4.2m long x 2.4m high - he put in a K2 600 x 1000mm long, giving 5910. There are two external walls, like lounge, and three single glazed sashes but all secondary glazed so no draughts. There is about 75mm of loft insulation.

2nd bed - 2.55m x 4.2m x 2.4m high. Rad is K2, 450mm x 1100mm = 5100BTU. Two outside walls, one double glazed window, roof space insulated with 75mm insulation.

Bathroom - installer was arguing that I asked for a towel rail which he pointed out isn't as powerful as a panel radiator. I pointed out I never told him how big to make the towel rail! He installed one 500mm x 1200mm giving only about 1400 BTU. Bathroom is about 2.7m x 2.3m x 2.2m high, two external walls, one double glazed window.

Study - small room about 2.2m x 1.7m x 2.2m high. No radiator, just the boiler. One small dg window, one external wall.

That's it, so about 37600 BTU of radiators in house. Sounds like I need ask if he limited the boiler heat output yes?

 

[Alex100]

Hi Steve and others who can advise on the flow/return circuit

So just having two pipes to all rads is good enough? I expected to see two pipes passing close to every rad, and then tees going off to the rad from the circuit, one to each end of rad. As some of these branches/tees are 2 to 8 metres long (the flow/return circuit not coming near some rooms even), and one or two have a second radiator teed off mid-way, I was a bit worried the system may have curious eddies/turbulence and be difficult to balance.

Can I at least forget about this issue and not be expecting to see a nice two pipe circuit flowing round the house? It looks more like a set of long branches from a limited ring main.

 

[Alex100]

Is the boiler continually turning on and off while the house is heating up?

Did the installer measure the incoming cold water flow rate and dynamic pressure before recommending a 38kW boiler?

I haven't checked that. Do I need to just listen to the boiler? I assumed it would turn off every few minutes whilst the hot water pumped round, then come on again. What am I looking out for?

I asked for adequate hot water and he specified a 37CDi - I pointed out that had been discontinued and replaced with a 38CDi, which I said I presumed he would then get. He never mentioned matching a boiler size to house size, and I doubt he did that measurement - would it be in my commissioning booklet?

 

[vern]

Many many thanks to all those helpful posts - and good to see people enjoy what they do too. In response to request for sizes, here are room sizes.


Room size examples:

Lounge - 3.45m x 4.25m x 2.5m high, two external walls of 18inch stone & rubble, 3.2m of double glazed and draughtproofed sash, timber floor with space beneath. In here he has placed a Stelrad K2 compact (450 x 1200mm) which gives about 5615 BTU

Dining - 3.45m x 4.2m x 2.5m high, one external wall, one single glazed window into the conservatory (so not really a window). In here a compact stelrad K2, slightly smaller, 450mm x 1100mm, giving about 5100 BTU

Kitchen - I wanted to get a rad and the installer didn't calculate what I'd need. I got a vertical semi designer thing from B&Q (i know, i know, but it was a weak moment) giving 2800 BTU. Looks alright but gurgles if turn TVR up beyond 3. Kitchen is 2.7m wide x 5m long x 2.2m high, one small double glazed window, one external wall (short side) and one wall has a door and window into the conservatory (antarctica).

Conservatory - a few installers who quoted suggested not trying to fully heat the conservatory but I though to put something in at least to take the edge off the cold. I suggested something under the interior window, so he put Stelrad K2, 300mm x 1500mm giving 5026 BTU. It's 2m x 5m long, and over 3m on high side. Also, that rad is teed off the dining room rad flow & return, not from the main flow/return circuit.

Hall & upstairs landings - incl stairs it's about 15 to 16 m long (horizontally) x 0.9m wide x 2.5 m ceiling. No outside walls (just party walls) or windows. There is one K1 downstairs (600mm x 11000mm = 3678 BTU) and one upstairs (600mm x 900mm giving 3009 BTU)

Master bed - 4.35m wide x 4.2m long x 2.4m high - he put in a K2 600 x 1000mm long, giving 5910. There are two external walls, like lounge, and three single glazed sashes but all secondary glazed so no draughts. There is about 75mm of loft insulation.

2nd bed - 2.55m x 4.2m x 2.4m high. Rad is K2, 450mm x 1100mm = 5100BTU. Two outside walls, one double glazed window, roof space insulated with 75mm insulation.

Bathroom - installer was arguing that I asked for a towel rail which he pointed out isn't as powerful as a panel radiator. I pointed out I never told him how big to make the towel rail! He installed one 500mm x 1200mm giving only about 1400 BTU. Bathroom is about 2.7m x 2.3m x 2.2m high, two external walls, one double glazed window.

Study - small room about 2.2m x 1.7m x 2.2m high. No radiator, just the boiler. One small dg window, one external wall.

That's it, so about 37600 BTU of radiators in house. Sounds like I need ask if he limited the boiler heat output yes?

Alex,

i have not worked them out, but they all seem undersized to me at a glance someone will work them out!

looks like he bought a 40,000 btu heat pack don't hang him for this as i am guessing

B&Q rad noises as baffle will be missing to stop cross flow of flow and return check with them not big enough anyhow

why no rad in study? CDi's give off little heat, @£ 7k you should have

 

[SimonG]

There is about 75mm of loft insulation.
QUOTE]

Wel there's a big part of your problem.

 

[Alex100]

Simple ask him to provide the design & heatloss calculations he used to size & then select the rads, as you believe they are undersized & this is the cause of the system (product) you have paid a lot of money for not working correctly, give him a few days to provide these & the chance to correct the problem otherwise you will have to go see trading standards & the court. You may need to get another engineer in to prepare a report on the installation to back up your claim. (see CIPHE)

As others have said it could also be the boiler heating output is to large for the load but most likely it is the rad's.

Chris

Should he have a design and written calculations then? He said to me he used an online BTU calculator that he found very reliable and I did think blimey, I could do that myself (which I have many times, and his rads are either too small or marginal at best, depending on the website).

It is sounding like I need to find a respected heating surveyor and get this checked before he starts putting bigger rads in and charging me. He has said 4-6 weeks to put bigger rads in - I refused to just pay and said I'd ay the difference in cost of the rad for the lounge, dining and bathroom rads to be upgraded (not labour or other materials). Maybe others will find that the whole system is under powered and that will get interesting - I'd def need an independent report then.

Many thanks
Alex

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Its not about how powerful the boiler is
Its about how much can you prevent the HEAT LOST
If no one is using ch all day and you expect it to worm up the house in 15min this will never happen

Rads do seem a bit small , but then was there enough available space to install bigger rads ?

For any one to give right advice seen the job is best option to help out

Piping the system sounds ok to me tbh

 

[Alex100]

Its not about how powerful the boiler is
Its about how much can you prevent the HEAT LOST
If no one is using ch all day and you expect it to worm up the house in 15min this will never happen

Rads do seem a bit small , but then was there enough available space to install bigger rads ?

For any one to give right advice seen the job is best option to help out

Piping the system sounds ok to me tbh

Thanks for input. Yeah, plenty of space for bigger rads. It's not that I want house to heat up in 15 mins, but an hour would be nice. For example in cold spell the dining room was only up to 19.5 degrees after 3 hours of coming on (would have been about 15-16 when it came on), the lounge a degree colder, and rest of house similar.
Alex

 

[Alex100]

There is about 75mm of loft insulation.
QUOTE]

Wel there's a big part of your problem.

That's on my list. It's under boarding and carpet, so it's not a weekend job. Still, the heating system was installed knowing what is in the attic and I was never asked about that.

 

[mfgs]

I did a rough calculation on the lounge as per the info you gave and got about 2.2kw which I think is approx 7500btu's, so that one looks undersized.

 

[chris watkins]

Chris

Should he have a design and written calculations then? He said to me he used an online BTU calculator that he found very reliable and I did think blimey, I could do that myself (which I have many times, and his rads are either too small or marginal at best, depending on the website).

It is sounding like I need to find a respected heating surveyor and get this checked before he starts putting bigger rads in and charging me. He has said 4-6 weeks to put bigger rads in - I refused to just pay and said I'd ay the difference in cost of the rad for the lounge, dining and bathroom rads to be upgraded (not labour or other materials). Maybe others will find that the whole system is under powered and that will get interesting - I'd def need an independent report then.

Many thanks
Alex

You have to be fair to this guy & give him both the chance to show how he has size / designed the system to do the job you have paid for & if any mistakes have been made to correct these. Not withstanding that, the product he has provided you does not appear to be fit for purpose, he is obliged to provide information to show how he selected the components to do an acceptable job, what ever form this took (there are too many variables to start second guessing) with that info you can then see wether it is both works / is designed within the normally acceptable standards.
He can not make a charge of any kind (for the rads) for correcting his mistakes unless you had some kind of input into selecting these.
You need to write to him setting this out & tell him that 4-6 weeks is no good.

 

[aladin]

as previously said,
all seems well apart from the heat pack so undersized rads dont hang the guy simply ask the chap to recalculate and replace

 

[MRDrip]

Are all your "external walls of 18inch stone & rubble," the same ? is there any internal insulation on the walls?
Just wondering how many tons of stone need to be heated to warm the building.

 

[bewsh]

These online radiator sizing sites generally tend to over size them as it's difficult to accurately size a radiator without knowing the exact u values of the building materials in the property.

Also something to be mind full of is that for energy efficiency you have to follow building regulations/british standards which state the temperatures for each type of room, ie lounge=21C, bedroom=16-18C, or something like that.

 

[josh]

Simple thing, is the boiler stat turned up?
not another 'oh we'll set that at 45c to condense more' then wonder why rads only get warm.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

good work Josh

 

[Centralheatking]

Josh is right in some ways - in order to get these 'intermediate tech' condensing boilers to perform properly I understood the installer has to undersize the boiler in order to get it to operate at peak performance - that way it recovers the heat.

Mind you John Prescott was the minister that over saw this legislation - he was good with his fists but maybe not with a technical issue - he seemed to shoot from his hip and
sometimes below that - as his wife found out


centralheatking

 

[vern]

Simple thing, is the boiler stat turned up?
not another 'oh we'll set that at 45c to condense more' then wonder why rads only get warm.

Sorry to disappoint guys ........re read post number 1 the boiler radiator thermostat is set to max, which means flow of 88 degs, rads are undersized!

 

[richardgas]

has he put a room stat/programmer in correct position and in the hours it takes to heat house are all the rads hot to touch or just warm

 

[Nostrum]

He's probably used an online calculator which doesn't have the option of choosing rubble walls, I haven't seen many that do. If he's sized the rads for a cavity wall build with insulation etc, your going to be at a loss.

vern, are you saying the code plug allows the boiler to modulate lower than the minimum stated output? Most are able to limited the maximum output but the minimum remains the same.

 

[doitmyself]

in order to get these 'intermediate tech' condensing boilers to perform properly I understood the installer has to undersize the boiler in order to get it to operate at peak performance - that way it recovers the heat.

Whoever told you that didn't know what he was talking about!!

If a house has a 10kW heat loss it needs a 10kW boiler. Putting in a 5kW will just mean that the house will only reach the required temperature (21C) if the outside temperature is above 10C!

Heat recovery, i.e condensing, only occurs if the return temperature is below 55C; the lower it is the greater the condensing effect. Most boilers are designed to work with a 20C differential, which means a flow temperature of 75C if you want the return to be 55C. Unfortunately this reduces the output of radiators by about 15%, so you have to install rads which are 20% oversized.

 

[Alex100]

has he put a room stat/programmer in correct position and in the hours it takes to heat house are all the rads hot to touch or just warm

all hot to touch. i bleed regularly, which is the installer's mantra, but rarely any air.