New home woes with heating

[stevetheplumber]

before getting someone in to size it you need to find out from the builder the u value for the type of construction theyve built with

 

[AWheating]

if the building has been build with very good u values then the rads many well only need to be very small.

Theres design and then theres building to said design. if you watched the recent programme on tv about new builds you would have seen a top 3 builders (size wise) house which cost 3/4 of a million have around 75% of its insulation missing.

 

[Sg1973]

Thanks. Given the problems I'm having in general it wouldn't surprise me at all that corners have been cut. So agree that it might have been designed to have a decent U value but not necessarily built to that design. The question is how I go about proving it...

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Thanks. Given the problems I'm having in general it wouldn't surprise me at all that corners have been cut. So agree that it might have been designed to have a decent U value but not necessarily built to that design. The question is how I go about proving it...

thermal imaging cam will be able to tell

home survey would be best

 

[clarky101]

If no joy from the house builder get the NHBC involved....you'll have a warranty on the house.....

 

[ShaunCorbs]

If no joy from the house builder get the NHBC involved....you'll have a warranty on the house.....

"It doesn't have NHBC but instead has Premier guarantee."

 

[Sg1973]

It's a good point nonetheless, to see if build quality in general is something they can assist with.

According to the builder, someone from premier guarantee will have assessed the work on the house.

Might give them a call.

 

[clarky101]

"It doesn't have NHBC but instead has Premier guarantee."

Missed that bit ....sorry...

 

[zzzjim]

Did like bit that house may be Drying out for Xmas , while many folk are trying the opposite.
Have a Merry Xmas .
( de-humidifier if badly plastered ?)

 

[Sg1973]

Meeting the builder's customer care team today. Will see what they say about everything.

 

[stevetheplumber]

last new builds i did from scratch i saw nhbc twice in 4 months

 

[Sg1973]

If you don't mind me asking, what were the issues?

 

[Sg1973]

I have now measured each room as accurately as I can and I've also done my own calcs for the cubic metres in each room in case this is useful. I also posted in the "looking for plumber" section to see if anyone would like to assist.

I attach photos of my internal drawings for reference and hope they're clear enough.




Please note that the internal doors aren't solid. External doors are solid with half glazed to the rear and three small rectangular glazed sections to the front (maybe 7"x5").

Flooring is concrete on soil, which they insulated before laying the concrete. Walls are brick with insulated cavity. Roof space has very thick insulation. Roof is tiled.

I'm in Pudsey just off Lumby Lane (LS28), so not particular exposed or high up at all.

My cubic metre calcs give the following. I have also listed for completness the current radiator sizes:

Ground floor

Hallway 13.9m3 rad size 500x600
Lounge 34.9m3 rad size 800x600
Study 13m3 rad size 600x500
W/C 5.9m3 rad size 400x400
Kitchen/dining/lounge at rear 60m3 rad sizes 600x600 K2 + 700x600 K1

Upstairs
Landing 8.9m3 rad size 400x600
Bathroom 12m3 rad size 1200x600 rail
Bed 1 26.4m3 rad size 700x450
Ensuite 8.4m3 rad size 1200x500 rail
Bed 2 35.3 m3 rad size 900x450
Bed 3 22.2m3 rad size 600x450
Bed 4 16.3m3 rad size 600x450

I have been informed that senior management and a heating engineer will be visiting my house in the near future, so it sounds like they are taking things a bit more seriously now although getting an independent view of things would be helpful.

I also spoke with my neighbour who has the same spec of house and she's said that her front lounge doesn't get very warm either.

Sean

 

[newcastle phill]

Have you got an independant surveyor out yet.
Instead of asking dozens of anon faceless people who could have any level of knowledge or lack of giving an opinion - why dont you do the obvious thing ?

 

[Sg1973]

Thanks Phill. I have done what was recommended on here, to post on the plumber required section to see if anyone is interested in this. I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that a professional might respond to offer their services.

I could of course hire an independent surveyor, although finding a reputable one is why I posted on here in the first place, to see if anyone has any recommendations etc (which then led to my post in the other section).

If you've any recommendations in the Leeds area, feel free to share them with me.

 

[newcastle phill]

The only problem you face if you intend to challenge their work is ultimately this is what you will need - a professional report from a building services expert.
If you disclose your source of expertise is a general plumbing forum it wont further your cause.

 

[Sg1973]

I guess the feedback on here so far suggests it is inadequate but I wouldn't use a general forum response to go head to head with the builder. I will seek a professional and am. If I can't achieve that via a professional on this forum, then I will need to go elsewhere.

 

[Sg1973]

Just thought I'd post the latest here. The heating/plumbing engineer I hired came to view my house yesterday. He confirmed all my suspicions. The house just doesn't get warm. He said the radiators were the smallest he'd seen on a new build. I'll get a survey report from him to take to the builders, and I suspect court thereafter. He is recommending doubling the radiator, and hence, boiler size.

Got some good advice from citizens advice too on the steps to follow.

Will come back to let you all know how it goes.

 

[stevetheplumber]

Just thought I'd post the latest here. The heating/plumbing engineer I hired came to view my house yesterday. He confirmed all my suspicions. The house just doesn't get warm. He said the radiators were the smallest he'd seen on a new build. I'll get a survey report from him to take to the builders, and I suspect court thereafter. He is recommending doubling the radiator, and hence, boiler size.


Got some good advice from citizens advice too on the steps to follow.

Will come back to let you all know how it goes.

thanks for the update we would appreciate hearing the outcome of this

 

[Sg1973]

So after posting a pre (court) action letter yesterday, the builder contacted me this afternoon. He'd been on the phone to Myson's technical director (apparently) regarding the heat loss calcs and system design they were employed to do. Myson stand by their calcs but are coming to my house to see what's not working with their own eyes.

However, I checked their website and there's something odd. You can use an online tool of theirs to give you radiator recommendations. In other words, an online heat loss calculator. After trying many others online, my 5x3x2.5m room with two external walls and a 2.2m2 window, I usually get around 5000BTU as the heat loss. Myson's calcs show a heat loss of 785 watts or 942 after allowing for a heat up factor. That's about 3200 BTU.

Is this because a lot of heat loss calculators don't allow for current building standards?

If anyone can point me in the direction of the best site for heat loss calcs, I'd appreciate it. If necessary I could always hire someone to do the calcs for me.

Cheers

Sean

 

[newcastle phill]

If its a new build fabric heat loss is a lot less than older houses for sure.

 

[chris watkins]

You can't beat full manual calculations although it takes a bit of time IMHO.

Any fabric heatloss calc whether manual or on a computer must include the selection of all the fabric parts i.e. walls, floor, ceiling, windows & doors construction including the levels of insulation.
They also need to take account of what is on the other side temperature wise & then there is the heat lost through ventilation which varies depending on chimneys & extractor fans etc.

Most freebies just give a ruff & ready idea only for replacement with results that can vary greatly.

Whoever does them will need to establish the construction make-up of the house & use this in the calculations to establish the design loading there are still some variable that they could come up with such as the designed outside temperature (-1 or -3deg C for most parts of the counter), the location exposure & heat up allowance, as you mentioned etc.

All of this is set out in a very good book that a lot of the better engineers refer to called the "Domestic Heating Design Guide", not sure what the latest edition is, mine is 2013, but maybe worth the £28 or so cost.

 

[Sg1973]

So. Myson's technical director came today with someone from the builder. They absolutely stood behind their calcs and system. However, it transpired that there was a weather compensator fitted, limiting the central heating water temp to less than 60 degrees. They agreed to remove this (a quick job) and it has unleashed the full power. 80 degrees showing now on the boiler and the house is considerably warmer. Looks like they might have to remove them from all houses on the estate as it's not just me complaining.

Any other experience of weather compensators? Is this normal??

 

[newcastle phill]

Good result

 

[chris watkins]

So. Myson's technical director came today with someone from the builder. They absolutely stood behind their calcs and system. However, it transpired that there was a weather compensator fitted, limiting the central heating water temp to less than 60 degrees. They agreed to remove this (a quick job) and it has unleashed the full power. 80 degrees showing now on the boiler and the house is considerably warmer. Looks like they might have to remove them from all houses on the estate as it's not just me complaining.

Any other experience of weather compensators? Is this normal??

Weather Compensation is very good at saving you money in fuel cost and running your boiler at 80C is not the most efficient.

Some one has still mucked up the designs I feel, least ways it would suggest it was neither commissioned nor handed overt you correctly.

Was there a users guide that you did not read?