Normal unvented indirect tank or high gain unvented indirect tank

[roobaru]

Hi,

Trying to decide which cylinder to go for?

I am renovating my house which will end up having four bathrooms and a wc. I am planning to go for a 300l unvented indirect cylinder as currently I have a vented cylinder with a cold water tank in the loft and face issues with hot water pressure.

One of the things I am trying to decide is whether to go for a telford tempest, telford tornado or a Joule cyclone tank?

The other is that while speaking with the telford technical team, they told me about a high gain variant but I can't find any details online. I plan to use the cylinder with my vaillant eco fit 430 gas boiler. Will this support a high gain cylinder or am i better off with a standard unvented indirect cylinder?

Thanks

 

[SJB060685]

Before deciding you want to go for a mains pressure unvented cylinder have you first had your incoming main pressure and flow rates checked? If your incoming supply isn’t up to meeting your demands it changes the design of such a system drastically and could mean one of several approaches.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Also why not go with vaillant controls and make it priority hot water then you won’t need a high gain as most will do 20-25kw coils ?

 

[roobaru]

Before deciding you want to go for a mains pressure unvented cylinder have you first had your incoming main pressure and flow rates checked? If your incoming supply isn’t up to meeting your demands it changes the design of such a system drastically and could mean one of several approaches.

I haven't checked, I called the water company and they said that they only guarantee 1 bar pressure. I have put in an application to change the supply pipe into my home as the existing one is a lead pipe as per my builder and that I should have at least a 22mm pipe. Is there an easy way to find the pressure and flow rate?

 

[roobaru]

Also why not go with vaillant controls and make it priority hot water then you won’t need a high gain as most will do 20-25kw coils ?

Can you provide a bit more details as to what you mean by vaillant controls and priority hot water?

 

[SJB060685]

If you had a pressure gauge and a flow cup you could measure static and dynamic pressure and the flow rates. Getting the incoming mains upgraded is usually the first step to ensure adequate flow and seeing as your current supply pipe is lead then it needs to be done for that reason as well.
PDHW or priority hot water is where the boiler and controls system priorities heating the cylinder before central heating. You won’t have both at the same time. If the heating is on and there’s a demand at the cylinder the boiler will transfer energy to the cylinder and then revert back to central heating. Very common procedure these days.

 

[roobaru]

If you had a pressure gauge and a flow cup you could measure static and dynamic pressure and the flow rates. Getting the incoming mains upgraded is usually the first step to ensure adequate flow and seeing as your current supply pipe is lead then it needs to be done for that reason as well.
PDHW or priority hot water is where the boiler and controls system priorities heating the cylinder before central heating. You won’t have both at the same time. If the heating is on and there’s a demand at the cylinder the boiler will transfer energy to the cylinder and then revert back to central heating. Very common procedure these days.

Thanks for explaining PDHW, I thought that was the standard for any boilers these days. Do I need to do something specific in case of using an unvented tank? and do I need to go for Vaillant unistor tanks for this or can use any?

 

[SJB060685]

Anything specific in what sense? Any cylinder can be used but might change the controls needed if not a Vaillant cylinder. I’m an oil boiler technician not a gas engineer so I will leave it to @ShaunCorbs to guide you in that area 👍

 

[ShaunCorbs]

If you email vaillant with your chosen boiler and vaillant cylinder and your need eg 2 zones etc and they will email you back what you need

Or @EvilDrPorkChop @king of pipes

Can advise

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Thanks for explaining PDHW, I thought that was the standard for any boilers these days. Do I need to do something specific in case of using an unvented tank? and do I need to go for Vaillant unistor tanks for this or can use any?

You can use it with any tank, providing you use the Vaillant sensor and keep the cylinder High Limit stat wired in series with the motorised valve. Should the Vaillant VR10 sensor fail the MV would cut out the flow to the cylinder.

I've done a few systems with PDHW with Vaillant controls and other control systems. It works well providing you know how the system works, it's configured correctly and the timings are set correctly. The Vaillant boiler will allow you to set your coil ratings and Flow temperatures through the D. settings.

I have PDHW on my own system using a Main, an older MegaFlo. On a 170L system my hot water recovers in about 10 minutes with a what i'd say is a 50/60% draw off.

 

[king of pipes]

A 4 bathroom property will definitely need a decent incoming water supply delivering 3 bar pressure and at least 20 + litres a minute I've installed a 32 mm incoming supply on similar jobs , your current set up definitely needs upgrading to support the future demand, and a dedicated supply of at least 28mm pipework from the incoming water main to supply the unvented cylinder will be needed , I would let your chosen installer advise you on the best choice of boiler and cylinder for your home we all have our own ideas on these sort of projects. Regards Kop

 

[roobaru]

A 4 bathroom property will definitely need a decent incoming water supply delivering 3 bar pressure and at least 20 + litres a minute I've installed a 32 mm incoming supply on similar jobs , your current set up definitely needs upgrading to support the future demand, and a dedicated supply of at least 28mm pipework from the incoming water main to supply the unvented cylinder will be needed , I would let your chosen installer advise you on the best choice of boiler and cylinder for your home we all have our own ideas on these sort of projects. Regards Kop

Thanks kop, I have submitted an application get the pipework upgraded, currently waiting for the utility provider to get back with a cost estimate and timeline.

 

[roobaru]

You can use it with any tank, providing you use the Vaillant sensor and keep the cylinder High Limit stat wired in series with the motorised valve. Should the Vaillant VR10 sensor fail the MV would cut out the flow to the cylinder.

I've done a few systems with PDHW with Vaillant controls and other control systems. It works well providing you know how the system works, it's configured correctly and the timings are set correctly. The Vaillant boiler will allow you to set your coil ratings and Flow temperatures through the D. settings.

I have PDHW on my own system using a Main, an older MegaFlo. On a 170L system my hot water recovers in about 10 minutes with a what i'd say is a 50/60% draw off.

Thanks EvilDrPorkChop, my view so far for my hot water system was the following:

Vaillant ecofit 430 boiler
Either Tornado 300 L unvented indirect tank or Megaflow 300L unvented tank
Heatmiser controls for underfloor heating and hotwater
Tado smart control for controlling radiators

I have a solid floor on the ground floor so have used polypipe overlay plus board and polypipe own branded pipe for the underfloor heating which has necessitated that I need to get a polypipe manifold and pump. I am thinking of going for heatmiser actuators on top of the manifold and am trying to find out if this would cause any issues.

Do you see any issues with my proposed setup?

Thanks

 

[roobaru]

Anything specific in what sense? Any cylinder can be used but might change the controls needed if not a Vaillant cylinder. I’m an oil boiler technician not a gas engineer so I will leave it to @ShaunCorbs to guide you in that area 👍

Thanks, I was asking if there was anything specific needed to setup PDHW, my experience so far has been with a combi boiler. This is the first time I am using a system boiler

 

[king of pipes]

Thanks EvilDrPorkChop, my view so far for my hot water system was the following:

Vaillant ecofit 430 boiler
Either Tornado 300 L unvented indirect tank or Megaflow 300L unvented tank
Heatmiser controls for underfloor heating and hotwater
Tado smart control for controlling radiators

I have a solid floor on the ground floor so have used polypipe overlay plus board and polypipe own branded pipe for the underfloor heating which has necessitated that I need to get a polypipe manifold and pump. I am thinking of going for heatmiser actuators on top of the manifold and am trying to find out if this would cause any issues.

Do you see any issues with my proposed setup?

Thanks

Stick with polypipe actuators mixing controls never ends well , Heatmiser stats are very flexible and I haven't had issues with using them on Ufh , it seems your carrying out alot of the work yourself ? These 2 are electric systems but the principal is the same for wet systems, please make sure you read the manufacturers instructions and don't deviate from them use deep electrical boxes . Regards kop 👍

 

[roobaru]

Stick with polypipe actuators mixing controls never ends well , Heatmiser stats are very flexible and I haven't had issues with using them on Ufh , it seems your carrying out alot of the work yourself ? These 2 are electric systems but the principal is the same for wet systems, please make sure you read the manufacturers instructions and don't deviate from them use deep electrical boxes . Regards kop 👍

Thanks kop. sorry if I am being naive but how does the deep electrical boxes come into play in a gas based system, is this for the heatmiser stats thermostat?

 

[king of pipes]

Thanks kop. sorry if I am being naive but how does the deep electrical boxes come into play in a gas based system, is this for the heatmiser stats thermostat?

Yes correct for the Heatmiser stats you need 40 mm deep boxes ✅

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Thanks EvilDrPorkChop, my view so far for my hot water system was the following:

Vaillant ecofit 430 boiler
Either Tornado 300 L unvented indirect tank or Megaflow 300L unvented tank
Heatmiser controls for underfloor heating and hotwater
Tado smart control for controlling radiators

I have a solid floor on the ground floor so have used polypipe overlay plus board and polypipe own branded pipe for the underfloor heating which has necessitated that I need to get a polypipe manifold and pump. I am thinking of going for heatmiser actuators on top of the manifold and am trying to find out if this would cause any issues.

Do you see any issues with my proposed setup?

Thanks

Avoid the EcoFit Pure models, they have thier issues. I'd be looking at the EcoTec Plus system models, as these get the stainless steel burner. Not sure why you're looking at the heat only models?

MegaFlo tank for me 👍🏻

Honeywell EvoHome would be my choice for heating controls. Will allow you to do PDHW, and bring all the zones onto one system rather than two control systems.

As others have said, stick with Polypipe acuators.

 

[roobaru]

Avoid the EcoFit Pure models, they have thier issues. I'd be looking at the EcoTec Plus system models, as these get the stainless steel burner. Not sure why you're looking at the heat only models?

MegaFlo tank for me 👍🏻

Honeywell EvoHome would be my choice for heating controls. Will allow you to do PDHW, and bring all the zones onto one system rather than two control systems.

As others have said, stick with Polypipe acuators.

I am sticking with the existing boiler for now, will look into upgrading it to a better model at a future date due to budget constraints. I am not sure what you mean by looking at heat only models, are you suggesting to put a combi?

Had a look at MegaFlo, again the price difference between the Mega flor Eco plus and Tempest HG is about 600+ plus from what I understood it would not support an additional immersion rod. I plan to use the second immersion rod in future when I get Solar PV to reduce the heating cost.

Can you elaborate on the Honeywell system, do you mean between the wet underfloor and the radiator controls?

Regarding Actuators have ordered them along with the rest of the kit.

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

I am sticking with the existing boiler for now, will look into upgrading it to a better model at a future date due to budget constraints. I am not sure what you mean by looking at heat only models, are you suggesting to put a combi?

Had a look at MegaFlo, again the price difference between the Mega flor Eco plus and Tempest HG is about 600+ plus from what I understood it would not support an additional immersion rod. I plan to use the second immersion rod in future when I get Solar PV to reduce the heating cost.

Can you elaborate on the Honeywell system, do you mean between the wet underfloor and the radiator controls?

Regarding Actuators have ordered them along with the rest of the kit.

No, there's 3 types of boilers. Heat Only, System and Combi. You'd be best off with a system boiler, as this includes a pump and Expansion vessel with PRV within the boiler. The Heat Only Vaillant all have aluminium heat exchangers, where the EcoTec Plus system gets a Stainless steel round burner.

Depends how much your solar will produce. If it only produces 3kw then you may aswell stick with just one immersion?

Honeywell Evohome would be able to control the radiators and underfloor all on one control system.

 

[roobaru]

No, there's 3 types of boilers. Heat Only, System and Combi. You'd be best off with a system boiler, as this includes a pump and Expansion vessel with PRV within the boiler. The Heat Only Vaillant all have aluminium heat exchangers, where the EcoTec Plus system gets a Stainless steel round burner.

Depends how much your solar will produce. If it only produces 3kw then you may aswell stick with just one immersion?

Honeywell Evohome would be able to control the radiators and underfloor all on one control system.

the rough idea one of the person who came to survey said was about 8 Kw.

Would you have any links to the Evohome model and how it works, I tried to go to honeywell uk website and the details provided there are very minimal, reading them I am not even sure how the system would work.
Thanks,