NVQ, C&G, EAL 6129, 6089 and 6129 Plumbing Quals

[fuzzy]

Rather than bump and old post, i'll copy it into a new thread and update it for all those people confused over the quals

C&G is NOT a qualification, it is an awarding body. They do L1 construction multi skills, so in theory you could do this simple course and say you are C&G qualified in all areas of construction eh? Obviously you wouldn't be, but you would be telling the truth. Would you consider this misleading?
So when somebody says to me "I have my C&G" the first question is which one

Who do you think is the awarding body for the NVQ? ys thats right, C&G, so is the question, whats the difference between C&G and C&G?

I think most people are calling the 6129 Tech Cert the C&G's. The 6089 NVQ is the full qualification, the 6129 is the college based stuff required for underpinning knowledge. it was only designed to get people in training on the underpinning knowledge and they were supposed to all go on and get the full 6089 NVQ. Many centres offered the 6129 TC and then told people you have your C&G go out there now. In many ways it ruined the course for its true intentions, a 6129 is aa very good underpinning course but is sold as a full qualification because it is a 'C&Gs', this is wrong.

The NVQ 6089 can be done directly without the 6129 TC, but this is rare for 2 reasons. The 'direct' qualification is difficult to achieve on its own and the 6129 TC reduced the amount of on-site work required to be provided and is therefore the easier way to complete. Once you have a 6129 TC you only need to 'upgrade' it to a 6089, much of the work is done as part of the tech cert
It led to people going getting employment as plumbers, the plumbing trade then found the new 6129 TC people as poorly skilled, not their fault as they have only done 75% of the full qualification (6089)l. this gave the 6129 a bad name and forced centres into calling it a 'C&G' qualification to give it more credibility. The sector skills council summitskills who work with employers realised this they designed the new qual without a tech cert (6129).
Therefore all that can be gained now is a 6189 nvq diploma and yes it is C&G's. The 6189 NVQ Diploma is the new 6089 NVQ, there is NO new 6129 Tech cert (wrongly termed the 'C&G's')

Hope this helps, always remember C&G is NOT a qualification but an awarding organisation, you can get the same quals from other awarding bodies, EAL are considered the largest provider of qualifications and are recognized as the market leader in quals by many providers, they also offer tech certs and nvqs in plumbing which are judged to be better, problem with our sector is people think C&G is a qualification so if you said I have an EAL would be viewed the same? It should as its the same standards.

Remember that the NVQ is the replacement for the previous recognised C&G's craft cert (NVQ2) and C&G's advanced craft (NVQ3) and not the Tech Cert, thats only 70%(ish) of it. I don't get why some people call the 6129 the C&G's but not the 6089 when they are both from C&G's?

I love education and all it provides for many different people. I suggest our educational system is very good, yes it could be better but couldn't everything? The fact that we are were we are is a result of education, we should embrace it and support it.

I get frustrated when people dont understand what they are on, I hope this helps people who are looking to do the courses or employers know what people have when applying for jobs. You should always have the facts before making a decision.

Hope this helps

Fuzzy

 

[Dumplumb]

Hi fuzzy, i'm new here and trying to get to the bottom of something. To cut a long story short, I stupidly enrolled on one of these fast track plumbing courses last year, on the promise that (in the words of the very good salesman) I would become a "fully qualified plumber". Now, as somebody who was new to plumbing, I naively and stupidly believed him. But, during this course I have come to realise that I am only training toward the city and guilds 6128 heating and ventilating technical certificate, and as you have said, this isn't even a plumbing qualification! You seem to know what you're talking about so can you help? What is the 6128 and who would want this qualification if not a plumber? Is it going to be any use to me, or is it a pointless qualification that i've wasted £5500 on? I'd appreciate anything you have to say as I am totally confused and as you can imagine very angry at being mis-sold this course. Thanks.

 

[fuzzy]

the 6128 is a Heating and ventilation course, its a very good course in its own right. IMO its better than the plumbing course, you have an opportunity to get into commercial/industrial plumbing/pipe fitting which i always found better work and better paid.

people think plumbing is the better trade and everyone wants to be a plumber, i would suggest the H&V route at this moment in time is possibly better for now. I would finish the course, pas sit and apply o numerous commercial employers to upgrade to the NVQ.

 

[Dumplumb]

Thanks fuzzy, that's made me feel a bit better. I'll stick with it then and hope that somebody gives me a chance when I finish.

 

[jase158]

Hi fuzzy, agree with what you say, the reason i called it "city and guilds" is because nobody knows a tech cert,
when asked "what you up to?"
I say " learning plumbing"
" oh right, is that an NVQ?"
"No its tech cert"
"whats that?"
"its a city and guilds starter course which leads onto the NVQ"

which makes you feel like nothing.

Or you can just say, "I'm doing city and guilds plumbing"
and people understand.

But yes people should know what they are doing, before they enter into it.

a bit of research can save £1,000's of pounds.

and the other thing i used to call the tech cert is level 2.

glad they have changed it though, i never understood, why they let you do the tech cert without an employer and then you go to get an employer and find yourself out of luck, best option, find an employer first, then go to college

 

[AlexGas]

Well said, Fuzzy!

 

[manix73]

HI new here i got advert could On successful completion of all aspects of the intermediate and advanced level programmes (including the performance units from level 2), learners have the option to continue onto the final C&G 6189 level 3 NVQ Diploma in Plumbing and Domestic Heating units.

These final units are achieved by candidates completing a portfolio of diverse evidence of onsite work. This evidence can comprise of photographic and written evidence validated by a qualified plumber in the form of signed witness testimony. In addition some onsite work has to be directly assessed by a registered City & Guilds Assessor.

The onsite assessments will be drawn from significant plumbing and heating installations that the learner has complete responsibility for. This includes all aspects of installation, commissioning, servicing and maintenance, and also planning, supervision, communication.

Subject to availability T4TS may be able to assist potential candidates with sufficient work placements to enable them to fulfil the criteria for the Performance Units.

Please note that to undertake the NVQ Diploma Level 3 work-based Performance Units you must first have successfully completed the Level 2 work-based Performance Units

 

[manix73]

is this correct C&G 6189 level 3 NVQ Diploma in Plumbing and Domestic Heating

 

[fuzzy]

why dnt you do the level 2 and pass it then go and do the level 3?

 

[Jim1]

Hi Fuzzy

I agree with what your saying to people about City and Guilds and awarding bodies, the problem seems to lie with where the information is being disseminated. The people in Summit skills, City and Guilds, EAL etc, shouls inform those at schools and colleges what they are all about instead of telling those of us who already know. I am a plumbing teacher and it annoys me that so many people think that they will be a fully qualified plumber, earning thousands of pounds in 8-10 weeks. If it was that easy we would all be millionairres!!

Jim1

 

[fuzzy]

Hi Fuzzy

I agree with what your saying to people about City and Guilds and awarding bodies, the problem seems to lie with where the information is being disseminated. The people in Summit skills, City and Guilds, EAL etc, shouls inform those at schools and colleges what they are all about instead of telling those of us who already know. I am a plumbing teacher and it annoys me that so many people think that they will be a fully qualified plumber, earning thousands of pounds in 8-10 weeks. If it was that easy we would all be millionairres!!

Jim1

Hi Jim,

I think changes could be disseminated better i agree, and the new quals could be brought out in time for centres to prepare for them. However i feel summitskills work very hard and get a lot of flak which they dont always deserve. the main issue seems to be some centres allow candidates to believe what they want to believe ie. the 6129 will get you a job.

I have known people be told that the 6129 will not guarantee them work, is not the full qual, is not an nvq but so desperate to become a plumber they jump at it, half way down the line they realise or it dawns on them the truth, they thought they were being lied to that it wasnt worth much. They then blame anyone and everyone for the situation "I should have been told" when in fact they were. They listen to what they want to hear, they think they are being told the 6129 is worthless because plumbers want to keep them out of the trade, only for the lesson to be learned after forking out a lot of money.

So yes the message could be better by some centres but the people signing up must take the majority of the responsibility

 

[Jim1]

Your right about about people not listening, i get enough of it every day, but i still plug away telling them about hard work, aching backs, sore knees and all the pleasentries that come with the trade. The bottom line is, those who want it will work for it, and those who can't make it look for for a scape goat once they realise the path is not paved with gold

 

[fuzzy]

well said Jim, they dont say ooops i should have listened they say, its all plumbers faults etc etc.

The contradictions are incredible, people want it for nothing, fast track by tomorrow then complain they learnt nothing, cannot have it both ways can they

 

[fuzzy]

shameless bump, save me posting again

 

[Deleted member 25704]

So yes the message could be better by some centres but the people signing up must take the majority of the responsibility

I think there is some truth in what you say fuzzy, regarding the fact that we can only take responsibility for ourselves, but if we applied this notion to society we would be in all sorts of trouble. As human beings we are resposible for ourselves, and for others.

If qualifications are being processed through colleges, then there is an implicit trust that the teacher will be 'responsible' for the pupil. Sadly this is no longer the case. Institutions selling qualifications are corporate entities and as such, rely on making a profit disguised as 'non-profit'. The non-profit organisations claim to be charities or charitable trusts, further implying that they are trusted and 'ethical'.

If we draw a comparison between banking and plumbing education, there is little difference. The banking fiasco was spawned through 'moral hazard', which meant the banks taking people's money without taking the responsibility. I would argue that as a teacher, there is a moral responsibility, to the pupil, in terms of their safety. The books stops with those who are intimately connected to the customer (doctor/patient; lawyer/accused).

What we have all forgotten to consider in all of this, are the winners and the losers. If teachers are identified as being winners from the process of educating, given that they have knowledge that the customer may not have (and the make a profit from this), then the customer may be deemed as the loser in this transaction (or the one most exposed to risk).

When it comes down to the bone, the teacher is the moral guardian, and must take responsibility for their pupil. The situation around the plumbing industry over the last decade has made some organisations rich at the expense of the integrity and standing of the industry. And, at the expense of honest hard working people who have been conned into entering the plumbing industry, with dubious qualifications. This process not only puts the customer (pupil) of the qualification at risk, there is a health and safety risk to wider society through faulty workmanship.

 

[fuzzy]

I think there is some truth in what you say fuzzy, regarding the fact that we can only take responsibility for ourselves, but if we applied this notion to society we would be in all sorts of trouble. As human beings we are resposible for ourselves, and for others.
If qualifications are being processed through colleges, then there is an implicit trust that the teacher will be 'responsible' for the pupil. Sadly this is no longer the case. Institutions selling qualifications are corporate entities and as such, rely on making a profit disguised as 'non-profit'. The non-profit organisations claim to be charities or charitable trusts, further implying that they are trusted and 'ethical'.
If we draw a comparison between banking and plumbing education, there is little difference. The banking fiasco was spawned through 'moral hazard', which meant the banks taking people's money without taking the responsibility. I would argue that as a teacher, there is a moral responsibility, to the pupil, in terms of their safety. The books stops with those who are intimately connected to the customer (doctor/patient; lawyer/accused).
What we have all forgotten to consider in all of this, are the winners and the losers. If teachers are identified as being winners from the process of educating, given that they have knowledge that the customer may not have (and the make a profit from this), then the customer may be deemed as the loser in this transaction (or the one most exposed to risk).
When it comes down to the bone, the teacher is the moral guardian, and must take responsibility for their pupil. The situation around the plumbing industry over the last decade has made some organisations rich at the expense of the integrity and standing of the industry. And, at the expense of honest hard working people who have been conned into entering the plumbing industry, with dubious qualifications. This process not only puts the customer (pupil) of the qualification at risk, there is a health and safety risk to wider society through faulty workmanship.

Very good post and I have to agree with much of what you say. I would like to add though that just because there are some providers willing to mislead and therefore at worst gain money through false pretences and at best allow the customer to believe the qual is something it really isnt, it does not mean all providers or teachers are like that.

We should not tie all with the same brush, and since the customer/learner is giving up their cash they must take responsibility for their own research. If a sales person was round at your house would you always take their word for it?

 

[Deleted member 25704]

Fuzzy,

I am suggesting that all qualifications carry some degree of myth - look at Higher Education, those courses contain more illusions than Uri Gellar could muster. But, with vocational training, the expectation is that we should be able to do a job, if we have been trained and assessed for it.

I am not suggesting that teachers go out to mislead, but what I am suggesting is that teachers are not conscious of their own positioning within the training myth. Teachers have been positioned by more powerful others, who are not exposed to the same degree of responsibility. I think its a matter of 'do I stand by and let this happen' or 'do I do something about it'. At the moment, few seem to think there is a problem, with regard to supplying an industry with un-controlled numbers of workers - saturation is close, and this wll take decades to rectify.

A wider analysis of 'scientific managment' within the service industry (think AA, homeserve, tesco boiler repairs, sainsbury/wicks) will tell us that resposibility seems to be trickling down to those who least understand the risks involved. Take Gas Safe for example - they pick up the dosh, we do all the insuring, courses, accountants, doorstop selling regs, guarantees, safety, finance the contracts, take responsibility - sometimes for as little as £10 per hour, as one poster above pointed out - wages are not as high as one thinks.

In answer to your question about sales advice - if I had a priest, lawyer or medic round my house selling I would expect some degree of ethical standing - teaching is now a profession and liable to the same sort of expectation. People trust what teachers say, and there lies the hazard.

 

[fuzzy]

And also there in lies your misunderstanding Clanger, the people coming round to prospective customer houses are not teachers, they are employed to sell courses and nothing more. the teachers do not go out to sell courses, I feel you are judging the wrong people, if you feel the system is flawed at least aim your criticism at the right people.

Of course somebody is expected to have the skills after being trained and assessed for them (but understand the qual before expecting the skill); however somebody completing an apprenticeship or training course has the taught skills but not necessarily the experience. And as I said before, the value of both is equal. Do not blame education for what inexperience somebody has, that can and will only be delivered in due time, some quicker than others. Again I think your criticism of education is misdirected, How many people here can say they were as competent straight out of college as they were 5 years afterwards?

Saturation is close? Do you refer to tech certs or NVQ’s? the tech cert was not designed to make somebody competent, again this is the myth and if you criticize education you should be aware of its intention. I’m sure if you added all the tech cert qualified people then maybe we are close to saturation, once again though this is the fault of governments who put funding into certain areas, not colleges or teachers for providing what the government want and people apply for.

As some people in all walks of life do not play with a straight bat, there are many plumbers who rip off customers, this does not mean all plumbers are bad, the same is for education. Education has been fantastic for me, I speak highly of it and support it, but do not judge it for something it never claims to offer, ie, experience

 

[Deleted member 25704]

Fair comment fuzzy

 

[fuzzy]

Fair comment fuzzy

You've made some good points and have an interesting view point of the trade and education, sorry if I sound defensive. I feel as so often is the case the wrong people can be tied with the wrong brush. I'm not suggesting all is perfect but like people say of politics, its not perfect but its the best we have. People do work very very hard in education, some bad ones shouldnt bring everyone down

 

[Deleted member 25704]

No problem fuzzy

I value people's opinions as helps to widen my own. I can also see you have a passion for plumbing, and thats a good thing with regard to education.

 

[fuzzy]

No problem fuzzy

I value people's opinions as helps to widen my own. I can also see you have a passion for plumbing, and thats a good thing with regard to education.

You have a great attitude, we could all learn from this!

 

[AaronEFC]

Hi,

I have enrolled on the EAL level 2 In plumbing which I was informed when we started that we would be able to turn the certificate into an NVQ by having work based practical assessments at the end of the course.
The college I am training at have only moved to EAL this year due to funding issues and they still don't seem to understand exactly what the qualification is.
Today we were informed that we need to apply to do the NVQ separate to this qualification and that we need to pay but this was not explained at the start as I mentioned above we were told that it was part of the qualification. After lunch our tutor then stated that we achieve the NVQ by doing workshop based practical assessments. I didn't think that could be correct especially as EALs website states that VRQs cam be achieved in the workshop and NVQs are achieved in the workplace.

My whole class all believed the same as me as we took the word of our tutors as gospel but now it has emerged that they don't even understand what is happening but it is now nearly March and we started the course in September.

Can you please shed some light of what we gain from this course and what would be the next steps to employment due to the fact that it is not an NVQ.
Do EAL do an NVQ or would it be possibly to do a C&G NVQ make is competent?

Hope you can help as I am struggling to get to the bottom of what we actually achieve.

Thanks

Aaron

 

[fuzzy]

Hi,

I have enrolled on the EAL level 2 In plumbing which I was informed when we started that we would be able to turn the certificate into an NVQ by having work based practical assessments at the end of the course.
The college I am training at have only moved to EAL this year due to funding issues and they still don't seem to understand exactly what the qualification is.
Today we were informed that we need to apply to do the NVQ separate to this qualification and that we need to pay but this was not explained at the start as I mentioned above we were told that it was part of the qualification. After lunch our tutor then stated that we achieve the NVQ by doing workshop based practical assessments. I didn't think that could be correct especially as EALs website states that VRQs cam be achieved in the workshop and NVQs are achieved in the workplace.

My whole class all believed the same as me as we took the word of our tutors as gospel but now it has emerged that they don't even understand what is happening but it is now nearly March and we started the course in September.

Can you please shed some light of what we gain from this course and what would be the next steps to employment due to the fact that it is not an NVQ.
Do EAL do an NVQ or would it be possibly to do a C&G NVQ make is competent?

Hope you can help as I am struggling to get to the bottom of what we actually achieve.

Thanks

Aaron

eal offer vrq and nvq same as C&G's

if you do only nvq you do the tech cert as well, so to say the tech cert is parft of the nvq is correct, however you wont get an nvq unless you working in the industry, it aint automatic

 

[lee17]

Hi Fuzzy can u tell me if my NVQ is a full level as i can't find it on the city & guilds site. Its a NVQ level 2 in mechanical engineering services (Q1027228) 6019/03. I done a 2yr cousre at college and passed it in 2004. I was told back then that the course was to change in the following year. I'm guessing that it is a full NVQ as i now have blue CSCS card which you can't get without a full NVQ.