Potentially being taken to court. What should I do?

[Welder]

Firstly, been there done it, got the chuffin tee shirt, had the endless sleepless nights and been to court.

Secondly, and more importantly some facts followed by potential advice based on my experience.

1. They have a legal obligation to do a number of things. They should have notified you of the issue immediately it arose. No ifs, no buts. They should have given you the opportunity to resolve the issue IF it was 'reasonable' that the problem was of your making. Now here, best practice comes into play along with your experience or more specifically the experience of what they term a normal plumber. What is meant by that is; would a normal plumber have done what you did? Could a normal plumber have foreseen that UFH was installed under the pot? Judges are incredibly fair minded and I can tell you the likelihood here is that they will find in your favour on this particular issue.
2. Even if she didn't want you back, they have an obligation to you to offer you the opportunity to resolve is as I said. That means you would have probably called upon a mate to do you a favour and at mates rates. The customers DOES NOT have the right to choose any Tom Dick or Harry to resolve it. Further, you have the right to both see and agree to any repairs and works you may be potentially liable for. You were not offered that.
3. I get the impression she's effectively blackmailing you to pay out. DO NOT. Please please please get her to put all this Rubbish in writing, text or simply call her and get her to say it all again. BUY a recording app for your phone NOW as that can be used in evidence. This is potentially deformation of character and would effectively negate her whole claim as she'd be seen to be someone who is trying to extort from you.

DO NOT. DO NOT. DO NOT. DO NOT give in. A mistake has been made. However, you DO NOT Have xray vision. You cannot have known that there were UFH heating pipes under a pot. It is NOT industry practice to do that so you WOULD NOT in any reasonable circumstance have allowed for that.

She is trying to extort money from you when this is nothing more than a simple accident. She is wrong, wrong wrong and no court in the land will find for her A) it aint your fault and B) when she has behaved as she has.

What to do next?

First, start logging all the time and expense you incur dealing with it.

I would ask for all information including every bit of correspondence between all parties. Its called 'disclosure'. I would find out who the contractor is that fixed it and speak to them too. They will have been paid. RECORD everything said but do it discretely.

IF, she complies, IF she has been genuine, IF she has been reasonable then make her an offer of a part of the cost as a gesture of goodwill but be CLEAR that the offer is NOT tied to any admittance of guilt. Its called an offer without prejudice. Make sure its plain its a once only offer in full and final settlement.

If she goes off on one - take her to court. If she starts proceedings on you then let it happen. DO NOT engage a solicitor for the hearings. Get advice before hand but no more. When you turn up without a brief, the judge is legally obliged to support you to support yourself and believe me thats worth its weight in gold. Basically they do the work for you.

It isn't fun. it isn't clever and it will change you. However, do not let her beat you. You do not deserve it and the courts will not let her get away with tearing you apart.

If you want to talk just give me a call (David 07803 136613) but just don't let it get you down. You're in the right, she will not win and you'll get it sorted.

 

[armyash]

Dave wow thank you for that great reply.

Received pictures yesterday and a 6 second video clip. It does show I drilled through. Pipe.

Customers partner called today.

Apparently the plumber who did the repair said I should have checked for pipes - not sure how I would have done that, is it possible?

Said I should have stuck the toilet down with adhesive instead. I said if I stuck it down and it came loose I'd be in trouble for that if someone got injured and I hadn't screwed it.

Apparently the pipes have been there since the house was built.

They want £300. I said I'm not agreeing to anything, or admitting anything. I said I want a couple of days to seek advice.

I don't want to go to court.

I don't want to give them £300, it's more than I got for the job. I had to chase the basin pipes in the wall etc. Underpriced it my mistake but I don't want to be out of pocket further.

I will follow the advice given above.

I was going to call and say Im not accepting liability but I will give you £100 as a goodwill gesture.

I knew nothing of any of this and the repairs have been done before I was informed of the whole thing.

 

[rpm]

Could the pipe in the photos be any pipe or does it clearly show the tiled floor as you remember it, secondly why has it taken almost 2 months to show as a leak?

 

[armyash]

It is the floor where I was working.

I don't know why it's taken 2 months and they haven't said.

I'm disappointed it's happened. The thing that's bothering me the most is her. He is acting as a go between but I don't like how they are saying I have to pay. Especially since I wasn't given a chance to do anything about it. I said to him on the phone I could have sorted it or had someone sort it. He is being decent but he is saying I caused it so I have to pay.

 

[rpm]

Big long shot, just wondering if they have had the toilet changed since for whatever reason or your screws removed and longer screws been used?
It is the time delay I don't understand tbh.

 

[Scott_D]

Is it a pressurised or open vent system?
Copper pipe or plastic?

 

[armyash]

It all seems genuine that I have caused this. I don't know how it's taken so long to show, I don't know why they have not told me sooner.

They have said "you've caused the leak, you have to pay"

If they had told me about it, I would have sorted it on a day off so it would have cost me my time and minimal materials. If she was adamant she didn't want me in the house, I could have arranged for repairs to be done.

I don't see how they are allowed to have someone else do the work and bill me for it.

I'm going to speak to trading standards tomorrow then get as much info from the customer as possible. I'll try and avoid going to court but I'm not being bullied in to handing over £300 just like that.

I'm not happy with the way she has gone about things.

 

[armyash]

It's a combi. Copper pipe.

I'll post a picture.

 

[armyash]

How could I have checked for pipes?

Am I supposed to check for pipes before every screw on every job?

 

[armyash]

Here is a picture sent of the repair.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Is that a hole in the centre pipe / left one ?

 

[rpm]

I see the screw hole in the pan is the side fitting type, I`ve seen pieces of wood (3 x 3 x 5" long) stuck to tile`s before now replacing the L brackets.

 

[Scott_D]

Very unlucky to have hit it.
I'm not sure how you could have checked or known there would be a pipe there.

 

[armyash]

Is that a hole in the centre pipe / left one ?

It does look like it. I haven't asked about that other pipe yet.

I have text and asked for a copy of the invoice and contact details for the company who did the repairs, I'm going to ask how I could have checked for pipes. just hope the guy isn't the type to start talking down to me.

I'm also going to get the details of the pan and see if it says the pan should be fixed down in the MIs. I'm assuming it will as there is fixing points.

rpm that's a good tip, bit late for this job but will save it happening again.

I'm not a difficult person by any means, probably too easy going if anything. I bend over backwards to help people. I regularly work all hours night and day to get people out of a fix. Even if legally I don't have to pay, I'd be willing to give them £100 as a goodwill gesture as I feel bad about it but she hasn't had the decency to call. Its been pretty much a case of pay up or we'll see you in court.

 

[Harvest Fields]

It's a combi. Copper pipe.

I'll post a picture.

No way that has just happend the pressure on the combi would have been dropping every day.

 

[rpm]

No way that has just happend the pressure on the combi would have been dropping every day.

From day 1

 

[Old Account]

View attachment 33659[/QUOTE]

No way that has just happend the pressure on the combi would have been dropping every day.

not just everyday, it would have dropped in hours. Also too, the previous engineer said the pipes have been there since the house was built it’s a pure lie, the solder joints look very new and freshly done. Was the pipework actually covered? Cannot really see the pipe cover. The previous installer must have been out there everyday and filled the system. Highly unlikely that she trusted him for so long that they didn’t f.... up the system. Usually that would be the first guy who would be pushed away. She would have called other engineers to find out where the actual leak is. I know it for certain because I just have the same issue with a customer who had a building team in to refurbish the whole house. They even have changed the boiler weeks after due to the leak issue. The leak kept on going even after installing a new boiler so called out leakbuster and they couldn’t find the leak. The leak is surely in the groundfloor like the one you have. The is been going on for months now.

All I want to say is that she would have been ringing everyday different engineers to find the leak because the boiler would go in lockout wouldn’t it. So, my first question would bm))je who found the leak, how long did it take them to determine where ipthe leak was located. Only the initial installer would have known that there are pipes below the pan ... so perhaps they had a leaky joint and just used a screw to blame so one else’s !???? That’s what people do just not to be the cause but someone else’s. Look at the pipes they are new though...

Trust each and everyone on here - you are right and you do not need to be afraid.

 

[armyash]

I think the newly soldered pipe in the picture is the repair that has been made.

Nothing confirmed yet.

I have received a text from the customers partner confirming he will send over the requested info.

I just want to be clear that it does look like I have caused this when fixing the pan down, I'm not disputing that. Accidents happen.

Its the way its been sprung on me I have an issue with.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

also any chance of a pic of the pipe that was split / drilled etc

 

[Harvest Fields]

also any chance of a pic of the pipe that was split / drilled etc

I would want to also see as above.

 

[armyash]

That is all they have sent me, as well as a short video clip which doesn't clarify anything apart from a leak, nothing is visible.

 

[rpm]

also any chance of a pic of the pipe that was split / drilled etc

I would want to also see as above.

Very slim chance I`d say.

 

[Old Account]

I think the newly soldered pipe in the picture is the repair that has been made.

Nothing confirmed yet.

I have received a text from the customers partner confirming he will send over the requested info.

I just want to be clear that it does look like I have caused this when fixing the pan down, I'm not disputing that. Accidents happen.

Its the way its been sprung on me I have an issue with.

Alright can happen noth8ng wrong with that. But how comes after 2 months coming back to you ? Who repaired it? Same old engineer ? Highly unlikely unless he knew where to look for as this shouldn’t be installed like this. As above you need some evidence pictures with puncture pipework

 

[Welder]

Right. Let's get some things straight ArmyAsh.

Are you in the habit of working for free? I suspect you are not a registered charity either. Do you have x-ray vision? I suspect not. Are you a shyster? I know not.

Why the questions? YOU sir are NOT to blame here. You may well have drilled the hole, but you did so unwittingly, you did so having assessed the installation and risk using your considerable experience. At NO POINT did you even consider that there might be a pipe under a pan as that is poor installation practice and simply too ridiculous to even consider. To have even considered that one would also have to have considered the potential of being hit by a meteorite whilst balancing on the rim of the pot playing Snakes and Ladders. It is impossible to prepare for imbecilic installs so one has to assume things are done correctly.

The point of this is that it is NOT reasonable for you to pay a bean towards this never mind for all of it.

NORMAL behaviour in this type of instance is for the customer to call you immediately something occurs. As already indicated, the boiler would have stopped almost immediately it was drilled through because of loss of pressure. Once pressurised, any attendant boiler man would have seen it drop like a stone almost immediately. This would have rung alarm bells. She would have to have had a string of visits over a long period of time all of which should be evidenced. At some point the penny would have dropped and teh link made back to you.

In addition, the grout of the tiles over the puncture would have been discoloured due to damp compared to the rest of the room. Why did she not notice? Why did she not call you back when it was discovered where you were working?

Look, you have to deal with this as you see fit. However, having been bent over and survived I can tell you, not advise you, that you are being taken the Sod out of due to your nature.

She has NO legal recourse. She seemingly has NO evidence. You however do have the law on your side as well as potential expert witnesses with many many years of experience (me) willing to stand in front of a court, tell the truth and question her unreasonable behaviour, her crass attempt to illegally extort money from you and her threat to defame your character and business if you didn't pay up based on nothing more than her whim and misplaced indignation. Fact is, she should have put this through her insurers. They should then pursue the original installers and you'd be in the good books for highlighting an issue in her home she needed bringing to her attention.

 

[Old Account]

Right. Let's get some things straight ArmyAsh.

Are you in the habit of working for free? I suspect you are not a registered charity either. Do you have x-ray vision? I suspect not. Are you a shyster? I know not.

Why the questions? YOU sir are NOT to blame here. You may well have drilled the hole, but you did so unwittingly, you did so having assessed the installation and risk using your considerable experience. At NO POINT did you even consider that there might be a pipe under a pan as that is poor installation practice and simply too ridiculous to even consider. To have even considered that one would also have to have considered the potential of being hit by a meteorite whilst balancing on the rim of the pot playing Snakes and Ladders. It is impossible to prepare for imbecilic installs so one has to assume things are done correctly.

The point of this is that it is NOT reasonable for you to pay a bean towards this never mind for all of it.

NORMAL behaviour in this type of instance is for the customer to call you immediately something occurs. As already indicated, the boiler would have stopped almost immediately it was drilled through because of loss of pressure. Once pressurised, any attendant boiler man would have seen it drop like a stone almost immediately. This would have rung alarm bells. She would have to have had a string of visits over a long period of time all of which should be evidenced. At some point the penny would have dropped and teh link made back to you.

In addition, the grout of the tiles over the puncture would have been discoloured due to damp compared to the rest of the room. Why did she not notice? Why did she not call you back when it was discovered where you were working?

Look, you have to deal with this as you see fit. However, having been bent over and survived I can tell you, not advise you, that you are being taken the **** out of due to your nature.

She has NO legal recourse. She seemingly has NO evidence. You however do have the law on your side as well as potential expert witnesses with many many years of experience (me) willing to stand in front of a court, tell the truth and question her unreasonable behaviour, her crass attempt to illegally extort money from you and her threat to defame your character and business if you didn't pay up based on nothing more than her whim and misplaced indignation. Fact is, she should have put this through her insurers. They should then pursue the original installers and you'd be in the good books for highlighting an issue in her home she needed bringing to her attention.

Pretty much what I tried to say. Obviously my English is t that great but common 2months pressure drops? 2months always the same Installer back in the house ? You would give him a chance perhaps 2 but then you would look for another engineer because the trust will perish. Then another engineer who would tell you there is a leak on your heating system. He would have inspected it but couldn’t find it because it is in the ground so no physical evidence of a leak. I would even say you are unable to see the leak as it’s going down and not won’t leave any trace. So however, I guess everyone here has given you the best ideas and solution what to do. Just keep us updated that would be great