Pressure Test Q's

[AWheating]

Hi guys incredibly I am still without heating / hot water! However, builder now offering to try to do something! So some Q's if anyone can help.

NHBC told builder to carry out repairs to radiators where pipework to valves is leaking and then pressure test. They say "the pressure test should be carried out by an Independent Specialist how had not previously been involved with the original installation. The Specialist should produce a Report confirming the test carried out and whether it passes or fails and recomendations if necessary. A copy of the Report should be sent to the Homeowner and NHBC. NHBC reserve the rights to accept the Report in whole or in part. If it rejects any part of the Report we can engage our own Specialists. "

OK Q's:

1. what will happen if the system is dirty and it is pressure tested ? (Boiler was "chock-a-block with swarf and sludge" which is what initiated this particular saga).
2. can a system be pressure tested and left in working order if the boiler doesn't work because of swarf/sludge due to it not being commissioned from new?
3. what happens if the system starts to leak when joints are not accessible which is what gave rise to properties having to be re-plumbed as a leak below floor level was impossible to find!
4. could pressure testing to 4 bar weaken and thereby exacerbate potential problems with a defective system even if problems didn't show up immediately? We know the property that had to re-plumbed kept losing pressure to the boiler (only a small leak) not traceable. So is it possible that pressure testing a defective system, even if there isn't an immediate problem, could cause more problems?

Thanks

1, this should not effect the test, what i would recommend tho is that the system needs to have its water tested at a lab to see what is happening, if the system water shows no sign of correct treatment and cleaness then you can use this report to prove that the system was never filled,flushed and commissioned correctly.

2, the pipework will need to be tested to manifactures guidelines, this is likely to be above 4bar and because of this pressure you may find that the boiler and other fixtures may need to be isolated from the pipework to avoid damage to them. Ask boiler manufacture about this.

3, you are better off finding a leak now and getting it sorted out.

4, 4 bar is quite a low pressure to pressure test at, pipework manufactures instructions must be followed.

 

[Maitri]

Incredibly this is STILL ongoing!
We have no ensuite loo now because for weeks if we ran the cold tap in the bathroom the loo in the ensuite (2 rooms away) flushed! Then the loo in the ensuite would not stop flushing even without taps on, so we have no loo in ensuite now but still the NHBC and builder will not bring the system up to Regulation standards.
Best offer now from NHBC/Builder is to put the same fittings on all pipework that the builder put on leaking pipework last year. It is UGLY it looks horrible...and I could cry because I do not understand why I can't get anyone to simply get the builder to bring the system up to Regulation standards.

I am going to try to attach photos of the pipework and ask if there is another way?
Coming up from the floor is the Ginde pert-al-pert and then as you can see a bit of copper etc has been fitted to try to stop leaking. I can't get my plumbing / heating insured because it clearly never met Regulations...but if I don't accept what the NHBC are offering what can I do because a court of law would want me to show that I have tried to mitigate losses...once I accept what the NHBC have offered I would not have a case as I accepted the NHBC's resolution. Catch 22

 

[AWheating]

if thats a standard isolation valve it is not designed to be fitted on central heating because its not designed to take the temp. Its designed for hot and cold at 65*c.

either way its not correct and i would not except having a iso valve on evey rad pipe.

 

[Gray0689]

That's it standard as the pipework looks like multilayered pipe is not standard size
Does this pipe work go back to a manifold the pipe looks 16mm pipe I think as the nuts on iso different?

 

[tamz]

The MPC pipe as Gray said is 16mm and the copper is 15mm. The big nut is part of a 15-16mm adaptor which has to be used to connect to a 15mm compression fitting.
The iso valves are not really suitable for heating and they will probably leak sometime in the future.
You don't have a lot of options on how to join the pipe to the rad neatly without lifting floors and hiding the joint. If that can't be easily done you can either get the iso valves swapped for compression unions and paint it or use a crimped fitting and a bit MLC and the compression adaptor on the valve.
Either way ain't going to look too great but if that is what it takes you may have little option other than to accept it.

 

[Maitri]

Hi Tamz / Gray and A Wheating thanks for your responses. Iso valves don’t sound like a great idea and I am wondering why the plumber felt a need to use them? The guy that did the re-fitting last year wasn’t the builders plumber that fitted this awful system, he was a reputable plumber, so what was his thinking I wonder. I am at my wits end with this…I really don’t want this bodge but it’s hard to see what else. If work is being done on a system to bring it up to Regulation standards I wonder if Building Control / Water Regulator (?) would give me an opinion on the way this is being addressed even if the NHBC did the original Building Control, what do you think? I know it means taking floors up but that really isn’t my problem, this system is bodged, if I get any leaks below floor level I have to re-plumb because nobody knows where the joints are, no manifold, no access hatch or anything, which is why the builder had to re-plumb one of the houses in the first 6 months! I have a letter from the Water Regulator saying this system breaches Regulation 4, paragraph 7. My boiler, the heating system has stood now for 8 months not functioning, the boiler sprang a leaks and emptied all the water out of it 8 months ago. I have no idea what damage has been done to the system because it was never commissioned, and what damage has been done as a consequence of what has happened the past 8 months. I have no ensuite loo because I can’t turn the bath tap on in the bathroom 2 rooms away without the loo starting to flush continually, and there is nobody I can turn to to sort this , it seems astounding! I can’t even get insurance on the system because it never met Regulations and it is obvious it never met Regulations! I am exhausted and cry a lot of the time…

 

[Gray0689]

I feel so sorry for you that someone would sell a house that has so many problems I personally think you have really 2 options 1 is take NHBC to court and hope you win but going to cost you
or other option is to get a decent plumber in to re do your house at your own cost I'm afraid
If your insurance is out of the question

 

[Maitri]

Regulations

Continuing the continuing saga ....I have been speaking with a solicitor about the possibility of sueing the builder for negligence but that is for compensation for loss not to get the work done of course that would be too sensible as far as the law is concerned. So I would be sueing to get the cost of a new plumbing system one that I can get insured. My trump card in this as far as I am concerned is a letter from Wessex Water saying that the current system would not have met: The Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999 specifically Regulation 4, paragraph 7, Requirements for water fittings. When Wessex water visited the property the first thing they looked for was a manifold and then looked for an access trap (we have neither) they said joints should be accessible. This is why one of the properties had to be re-plumbed because the plumber could not track a leak below floor level as he did not know where the joints were, he said the system made no sense whatsoever he couldn’t work out which way the pipes had been laid or where the joints were! We haven’t got concrete floors we have got a suspended floor on concrete joists with the pipework just below the chipboard I believe, you can feel the wamth of the pipe through the floor (when I had warm pipes of course!!)


So my Q is how many systems do have joints accessible?
How many plumbers comply to Regulation 4 para 7?
My concern is will a plumbing expert agree with Wessex Water that the system did not meet Regulations regarding access to joints?

This is the big stumbling point for me with regard to accepting NHBC Resolution is that I will be left with a system that a leak below floor level will possibly result in the need for a replumb based on the builder already having had to re-plumb a property.

From an insurance point of view, I can't get my system insured if there is a pre-existing design fault, with inaccessible joints being seen as a a design fault and the dreadful fittings on all the pipes being seen as fundamentally not meeting Regulations! My other Q is, I have said to the builder that if, after his plumber has added all the horrible fittings to my pipes and pressure tested the system will he sign it off as meeting Regulation standards? If he does then I will have no problem with the insurers, but can his plumber sign off a system with hidden joints and crappy fittings to all the radiator pipework as meeting standards?

When I was speaking to the solicitor today, he seemed to be of the belief that ALL work plumbers do should be signed off as meeting Regulations, is he right?

Thanks

 

[fagsanbooz]

well not 'all plumbing work' has to be 'notified' to building control or a competence persons scheme, only if the work actually falls under any part of the building regs, but quite a bit does require notification and that is probably where the NHBC comes in.
Bathrooms, boilers, water heaters, cylinders, controls, soil stacks & vents, drains, electrics and a few other items are some of the items that require 'notofication'.
As far as the 'water regs' goes, not a great deal in domestic properties has to be notified to them, but I am sure that a brand new property does (because it needs a new mains supply and a meter) but i will check and get back. When you say the plumber 'signs off' the work, that means he/she or the company has the neccessary qualifications and belongs to a competent persons scheme or similar. I havent read all the previous posts but what certificates have you got from NHBC?

 

[Maitri]

Hi so the plumber does not have to work to regulations for changing fittings to a radiator then ? This is our concern, not only do the fittings look ugly but there is absolutely no guarantee they will work. We have no certs from NHBC , NHBC have repeatedly said they don't have any, indeed we have a letter from them stating that the Warranty does not guarantee a property will meet standards!!

 

[dontknowitall]

I've not read the detail of this thread and I appreciate you're having difficulties with the plumbing aspect of this build.

The fittings are probably ugly because they're cheap. You gets what you pay for. I'm not trying to say the plumber has done a good or poor job and the budget he had to work with we will never know.

However, as I understand things, your contract and contact is with the NHBC and/or the seller and not the individual tradesmen who've built the house.

It's never enjoyable reading of less than satisfactory occurences (speling?) and I hope you get a quick and helpful outcome. One thing you might bear in mind is that solicitors make money by charging for time (I've learned from past experience to my cost). I think it's a red herring when they are trying to persue the individual tradesmen and not go for the jugular (ie developer), so they earn from this red herring.

 

[fagsanbooz]

Hi so the plumber does not have to work to regulations for changing fittings to a radiator then ? This is our concern, not only do the fittings look ugly but there is absolutely no guarantee they will work. We have no certs from NHBC , NHBC have repeatedly said they don't have any, indeed we have a letter from them stating that the Warranty does not guarantee a property will meet standards!!

The certs I was referring to were the 'competence persons certs' confirming that the work was completed in compliance with building regs (Part L, Part H, Part P, etc) that a householder should receive when work has been completed.Maybe NHBC are exempt, would be interested to know if a property 'signed off' by NHBC does not require either; Notification to local building control or notification to competent persons provider?
Do you have anything to say the installation complies with various building regs?

 

[tamz]

There is no regulation 4 paragraph 7 in the water regs. (reg 4 stops at para 6)

With regards to accessibility, it could be argued that a wooden floor is always readily accessible, trap doors or not. It is the floor covering that makes it less desirable to access It would take less than a minute to cut a hole in it.
Nearly every house in Britain has pipes and joints under wooden floors. It is the way things are and were done. Sometimes accessing these joints is a bit of a nightmare because of the covering especially these days with hardwood and tiles and god forbid laminate.
However it is good practice - but certainly not a requirement - with plastic systems to install a manifold system with the manifold in a central accessible position and no joints from manifold to the appliance or whatever.

There is also no regulation as to the number or types of fittings an a piece of pipe other than they are of an approved standard.

If the builder used an approved plumbing contractor he would have given a certificate of compliance which basically said his work or installation complies with the water regs.
If the plumber was not an approved contractor, the water authority would have been notified of the work being carried out - they are on new build anyway - and it would have been up to them to inspect at regular intervals to see the work was complying. It very rarely happens tho and if it does they are not much interested in heating systems. Usually only the domestic supplies (hot and cold).

 

[Maitri]

Building Control came through NHBC and NHBC say they have no certs so nothing to say installation complies as NHBC say that the Warranty does not mean the property WILL meet Regulations! I know it's hard to believe but we have been trying to get this addressed for 9 months and simply can't believe that nobody is there to ensure ANYTHING meets Regulations or that the builder will bring a property up to standards. All the Phase 1 properties have been effected by the faulty plumbing and 2 of the Phase 1 properties are still not sold (with similar flooding due to faulty plumbing) but NHBC say it's fine for the builder to sell them with KNOWN plumbing problems! That is when they wrote and said that the Warranty does not mean the property meets Regulations.

 

[Maitri]

I am really confused I have looked high and low for my Water Regulations because I know when Wessex Water sent the letter to me with a copy of Regs I did find Reg 4 Para 7 . Their letter said: the pipe-work within the floor and behind bath panel would not have passed compliance of the water regulations as they would not have been accessible according to Regulation 4, paragraph 7, Requirements for Water Fittings. Ah OK Schedule 2: The Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999

Is this the one then:
No fitting which is designed to be operated or maintained, whether manually or electronically, or which consists of a joint, shall be a concealed water fitting.

 

[tamz]

Is this the one then:
No fitting which is designed to be operated or maintained, whether manually or electronically, or which consists of a joint, shall be a concealed water fitting.

No. That one applies to valves etc.

 

[sheff paul]

The pipe in question is very good if fitted correctly,used Rehau crimp fit in Australia which is similar to this and very good and desingned to be chased into walls,once tested it can carry massive pressure and never leak,but never used compression fittings on it,to get onto copper they have adapters one end crimp the other brazed,i think this has been modified for uk plumbing the inserts are either missing or the wrong size.The UK is one of the few countries with exposed pipes under baths,basins etc.Most countries have '' mini stop valves'' fitted on the walls supplying basins,toilets with flexis.I would call the rep out who supplies this pipe and get his opinion.. Most builders are a waste of space

 

[Maitri]

So does anyone know which part of the above Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999 Wessex water would have been referring to when they came to my house and said the joints should be accessible? Or did they not know what they were talking about? If nobody knows where the joints are if I have a leak below floor level how will anyone be able to know where to access it without sawing up the whole floor? I am just trying to work out why the builder and his new plumber (not the one that did the original plumbing here) said that they had to re-plumb No 43 because he couldn't track a leak below floor level. Thanks

 

[Maitri]

The saga continues! After 9 months without hot water /heating we finally had the system flushed in December...last week lost hot water again, this is where this all began a year ago. Plumber came out last week and said that the people who had flushed the system obviously didn't flush the hot water part of the boiler only the heating part, so the hot water heat exchange was still full of black bits. Today heating /hot water went again! OK so Q. When the plumber was here today I took out a bit of the Ginde pert-al-pert pipe to show him and I put my finger inside and it came out black. This was a bit of pipe that had been attached to a radiator valve, the plumber had cut it off when he was re-fitting the pipe that was leaking. What would be the cause of the black sooty substance inside the pipe. The pipe is plastic with an aluminium core. The plumber last week and today...looking at the contents of the hot water heat exchange black dust and iron filings (last year the plumber had flushed out black gunge and metal filings) said they wouldn't expect to see that in a 10 year old system. If the system however, had not been commissioned I assume this would be normal would it? The plumber today said he thought there was some kind of problem with the pipe that was setting up a reaction...does anyone have any ideas thanks?

 

[fagsanbooz]

I think 'carbon deposits' are a classic case of 'corrosion' within a heating system, seen it a few times before, flaky, ash like substance!!

 

[Howsie]

Sounds like no cleaner then inhibitor to me.