Quick question to all plumber's mainly self employed

[james017]

Would you or the company you work for take anyone on who has just finished a City & Guilds Level 2 Certificate (6129), City & Guilds NVQ 2 (6089) fast track with no experiance? as i am thinking of doing the course or whether or not to do the long way of two years in college?

 

[alph250]

Hiya

Unfortunately even though you are qualified it doesn't make you competent! and thats what they are looking for, im sure there are plenty of plumbing companies who would employ you as a trainee/improver/plumbers mate type role (opinion not taking into account current financial economy!) but expect at least two years to gain competency if your familiar with the consrtuction industry on the whole if not then 3-4 years, some pick it up quicker than others.

I left school at 16 and did an apprenticeship and completed it in 3 years thinking i would get a full days wage only to be told i would spend a year on slightly more but until proved competent i would not earn an 'adults' wage!

Unfortunately you will have to swallow a low income for a while, that is unless you wanted to go self employed? you can start with the moving of radiators and fixing taps, and as you progress take the 1,2 or 5 day courses to learn about each different aspect in greater detail ultimately ending in the gas safe register, but again expect 3-4 years!

But to answer your question I would consider someone in your position but again with the aforementioned constraints starting on around £13 - £14K rising £2 - £3K per year upon satisfactory progress
Hope i have not sounded to negative

 

[royalflush]

The recognised industry standard is NVQ Level 3 which means 4 years at college, as you cannot get a proper NVQ without on site experience. Without this you also cannot be graded as a plumber by the JIB and so will probably only be paid as a plumber's mate. Unless of course you worked for a company that wasn't registered with the JIB. I don't wish to throw a spanner in the works for you (apologies for the pun) but fast track courses are a waste of time and money and the majority of people in this profession frown upon them.

 

[PJE1098]

I totaly agree .. They realy damage the plumbing industry,, make a mockery of apprenticeships and the only winner is the course organisers..

 

[james017]

Hiya

Unfortunately even though you are qualified it doesn't make you competent! and thats what they are looking for, im sure there are plenty of plumbing companies who would employ you as a trainee/improver/plumbers mate type role (opinion not taking into account current financial economy!) but expect at least two years to gain competency if your familiar with the consrtuction industry on the whole if not then 3-4 years, some pick it up quicker than others.

I left school at 16 and did an apprenticeship and completed it in 3 years thinking i would get a full days wage only to be told i would spend a year on slightly more but until proved competent i would not earn an 'adults' wage!

Unfortunately you will have to swallow a low income for a while, that is unless you wanted to go self employed? you can start with the moving of radiators and fixing taps, and as you progress take the 1,2 or 5 day courses to learn about each different aspect in greater detail ultimately ending in the gas safe register, but again expect 3-4 years!

But to answer your question I would consider someone in your position but again with the aforementioned constraints starting on around £13 - £14K rising £2 - £3K per year upon satisfactory progress
Hope i have not sounded to negative

I would actually be happy with that wage i dont expect to jump out of the course and be on a 20k job and i dont mind working on low wage as i am still only 22 yrs old i am not thinking about next yr, i am thinking by the age of 27-32 i want to be on a good wage if you know what i mean

 

[anz]

You might be happy with the wage, but trust me you'll find it hard getting a job.

 

[HTB]

As an ex fast tracker (nearly 5 years ago) my I politely reply to PJE1098's comment above.

Fast trackers have only been around for no more than 5 or 6 years, the damage to the reputation of the plumbing industry was done long before that, by people who may well have served plumbing apprenticeships, be Corgi registered and maybe even have 20 years plus experience.

On entering the industry, and achieving C+G 6088, Water Regs, Unvented and Part G with CORGI, I went on to establish my own business and (notwithstanding the current economical situation) have been reasonably successful.

Whilst working I have come accross plumbing installations which were//are quite frankly shoddy, and the work has been carried out by individuals who would claim to be suitably qualified, experienced and registered and may even look down their noses at fast trackers like me. And when it comes to what they were historically charging for this poor quality workmanship, its not hard to work out why they are collectively to blame for destroying the good name of the trade in general.

Therefore, I can tell you straight that there are some incredibly incompetent plumbers out there who are NOT fast trackers, and some very good plumbers who are.

Through experience, I have found that is often the less able, less confident, less successful and technically challenged "old school" plumbers who are quickest to point a finger at "fast trackers", as it seems to give them some re-assurance that there is someone lower on the totem pole than themselves.

Its only human nature not to want to be "last" in the race or to come bottom in the league tables, so it seems to me that some people are too quick to point the finger at "fast trackers" when perhaps they should be looking to themselves, or their colleagues for the source of the damage done to the reputation of the plumbing industry.


........now how do do like them apples?????

 

[flat pack]

well said
this is a plumbers forums for plumbers new or old.
not for joe soap to get info out of us
jobs that some of us need

these may be the crap work you had to repair...........

 

[alph250]

Fast track courses and media hype are to blame for state of plumbing, By saying you can be a qualified plumber in a few months through intensive training undermimes the principles that trades are taught on, hence why apprenticeships are 4 years long, in fact, turn the clock back 30 years and they were 6-7 years long!!!

NOT 2 - 3 months!

On a Fastrack you can learn to solder, fix taps, bit of regs, move a radiator etc, but you will never learn the fundamental scienctific principles of plumbing which underpins everything you would/should do as a plumber.

You will always have good or bad plumbers just as you would with carpenters or brick layers but you cant blame that on the way the trade was taught, However what is very clear to alot of peeple is that fastrack plumbers are worse than apprentice trained plumbers because they come out of training after 3 months or so with the same attitude as an apprentice "im a qualified competent plumber" when infact the guy whos done his 4 years could claim exactly that, fastrack...... yeah right!!!

Its like saying a kwik fit fitter is a mechanic, would you trust the kwik fit guy to change your cambelt.... i think not, though i would be happy for him to change tyres exhausts etc

 

[dontknowitall]

I'm a newly "qualified" plumber (fast track). I didn't have 4 years to wait to start earning because I have a family and mortgage.

When you learn to drive you can have a lesson a week (like an apprentice) or do a five day intensive driving course (fast track). Neither makes you a better driver. You pass the test and THEN you start learning how to drive well.

From what I've heard an old fashioned apprentice spent the first year or two learning how to do things like make the tea, fetch and carry things from and to the van, hold the basin in place while his master screws the thing into the wall and so on. I assume this is why they call these courses fast track because the training centres don't teach you these pointless tasks and get on with teaching you how to solder, the water regs and so on. Not on one evening a week - it's full on all day for a couple of months. Interestingly, 48 weeks at 2 hours evening course per week = 96 hours learning. That's three weeks at 32 hours per week. These courses are generally eight weeks plus (or 256 hours of learning!)

With my "qualifications" I know how to solder, fix taps and so on. My job usually soldering in new pipe, fixing taps, repairing loos, installing bathrooms, moving or installing radiators and stuff like that. It's not rocket science but I did my course because I wanted to know how to do these jobs properly. I had no idea until I went on the course that there were water regulations so if I'd set up as a plumber without going on a course I'd be called irresponsible.

If I get a job that requires more ability than I have (e.g. installing a brand new central heating system) I'll back off and recommend a more experienced plumber. One day (in a few years time?), I'll learn enough to be able to do that job myself.

I don't know everything and probably never will but I do consider myself a "qualified compentent plumber" when it comes to things such as installing bathrooms, showers, repairing loos and that type of thing. (Just about all my jobs come from recommendation as I hardly advertise.)

If the point you're making is someone new to the industry does not know anything like as much as an old hand I'd agree and think most other fast trackers will as well.

We're not necessarily worse than apprentice trained though. We just have less experience in dealing with things we weren't taught like, how to cope with imperial sized pipes and copper waste pipes.

There are good and poor fast track plumbers and there are good and poor old hands who went through the old fashioned apprenticeship and I'd suggest the ratios of both are approximately equal.

 

[james017]

Fast track courses and media hype are to blame for state of plumbing, By saying you can be a qualified plumber in a few months through intensive training undermimes the principles that trades are taught on, hence why apprenticeships are 4 years long, in fact, turn the clock back 30 years and they were 6-7 years long!!!

NOT 2 - 3 months!

On a Fastrack you can learn to solder, fix taps, bit of regs, move a radiator etc, but you will never learn the fundamental scienctific principles of plumbing which underpins everything you would/should do as a plumber.

You will always have good or bad plumbers just as you would with carpenters or brick layers but you cant blame that on the way the trade was taught, However what is very clear to alot of peeple is that fastrack plumbers are worse than apprentice trained plumbers because they come out of training after 3 months or so with the same attitude as an apprentice "im a qualified competent plumber" when infact the guy whos done his 4 years could claim exactly that, fastrack...... yeah right!!!

Its like saying a kwik fit fitter is a mechanic, would you trust the kwik fit guy to change your cambelt.... i think not, though i would be happy for him to change tyres exhausts etc

Hi i would like to point out not every student who does fast track thinks they are as good as an apprentice who has done a 4 yr course, This is mainly comman sence well it is too me but who the hell thinks that doing a fast track course for 3 months makes you as good as someone who has been a apprentice for 4 yrs, I am considering doing the fast track course to get the qualifications ( even though i do not have the experiance yet) and then finding a job as a trainee plumber or a plumbers mate etc for a minimum of two years to get experiance i do not see a problem in this, if anyone does please let me know.

 

[bobpape]

I have to say that just because a plumber knows all there is to know
it does not necessarily mean he will do a good job,

Some plumbers think what is the point of doing a good job when the person he is doing it for would not know what a good job was,

Even if a job is being supervised at every stage some will still try to pull a fast one,

I guess it is human nature, but before you become cynical like me you still have a good few years work in you, and the fact that you have taken the trouble to do a course must surely stand you in good stead,

If I was a fast tracker just starting on the tools I would try to avoid "jobbing"
and get myself a job on a big plumbing firm doing multiple installations of plumbing
and heating once you have done one or two the rest are easy and you hardly need
think about it but the repitition allows you to fine tune your skills, you will come to understand about plumbing and heating in a more rewarding less frustrating way,

If you said to your prospective boss, I have done all the courses now I want to learn
how it is actually done, I get to work on time, I dont chatter too much, and I can get stuck in, and you really mean it, how could anyone turn you down,

If you cant get a job on site work, do not think for one minute that because you are young and inexperianced that you can not make a valuable contribution to a jobbing
company

on the contrary, for example how can a manager/boss ask his top plumber (encyclopedia of all plumbing knowledge) to rush out to capture an emergency job, he would tell him to
sod off, thats where you come in,he has no problem asking you to go, (assuming you have a licence to drive)you get there,turn the water off start draining down, dosent
matter if you dont know what to do next,you can allways phone for advice, the most important thing is you have captured the job, point taken??

 

[james017]

I have to say that just because a plumber knows all there is to know
it does not necessarily mean he will do a good job,

Some plumbers think what is the point of doing a good job when the person he is doing it for would not know what a good job was,

Even if a job is being supervised at every stage some will still try to pull a fast one,

I guess it is human nature, but before you become cynical like me you still have a good few years work in you, and the fact that you have taken the trouble to do a course must surely stand you in good stead,

If I was a fast tracker just starting on the tools I would try to avoid "jobbing"
and get myself a job on a big plumbing firm doing multiple installations of plumbing
and heating once you have done one or two the rest are easy and you hardly need
think about it but the repitition allows you to fine tune your skills, you will come to understand about plumbing and heating in a more rewarding less frustrating way,

If you said to your prospective boss, I have done all the courses now I want to learn
how it is actually done, I get to work on time, I dont chatter too much, and I can get stuck in, and you really mean it, how could anyone turn you down,

If you cant get a job on site work, do not think for one minute that because you are young and inexperianced that you can not make a valuable contribution to a jobbing
company

on the contrary, for example how can a manager/boss ask his top plumber (encyclopedia of all plumbing knowledge) to rush out to capture an emergency job, he would tell him to
sod off, thats where you come in,he has no problem asking you to go, (assuming you have a licence to drive)you get there,turn the water off start draining down, dosent
matter if you dont know what to do next,you can allways phone for advice, the most important thing is you have captured the job, point taken??

Yup thanks for that, i just need to find a big company to take me on, how far into the course do you think i should start looking? as my course finishes on the 22nd of august 2009

 

[leakylea]

i welcome all people into this trade .....just to say i did a five year apprenticeship,and do not think that one day was a waste, yes i made tea fetched and carried more crap than you can imagine, my return was years of watching and listening craftsmen at work and being able to ask stupid questions that at the time were important to me.
That is where you learn your craft

education+experience+mistakes = craft

good luck to all us plumbers old and new

 

[PJE1098]

Just responding to HTB, Yes you are totally correct there are some terrible plumbers out there . I have had the pleasure in trialing 2 quick coursers each about 30 years old. They couldn't drain a cylinder, fill or drain a heating system nor could they indentify many pipes I asked.. My 2 second year apprentices put them to shame in regards to knowledge and experience.. FRIGHTENING!
Also when I refer to damage to the industry I dont just mean workmanship. Prices have been driven down in the past few years as "quicky's" undercut the proffessionals. Mastering your trade over 4 -5 years, earning low wages makes you appreciate and be a true member of the industry....

SNIPEF, in Scotland have made a stand against these colloges & training centres by banning apprentices attending them..

Gas safe are also to be prompted this time to refer more to the quality of installs, rather than just safety.. Which should identify those who can't even do simple things like soldering & putting PTFE on the correct way..

ACS assesments can be acheived easily these days depending where you go, but for some reason most operatives I interview cant even gas rate or soundness test properly...HHMMMMMM?

I think all people should be given the chance to attain ANY quals..they want but should have to adhere to the same training and attend proper colleges to do so!

 

[alph250]

Well said PJE

You pass the test and THEN you start learning how to drive well.

True but its not learning to drive its a trade which takes years to perfect and when you 'learn to drive' this is usually on the unsuspecting public, apprentice trained plumber would have 4-5 years exp on any train 4 trade person.

From what I've heard an old fashioned apprentice spent the first year or two learning how to do things like make the tea, fetch and carry things from and to the van, hold the basin in place while his master screws the thing into the wall and so on.

Er no, where i work we take our apprentices very seriously, afterall the blokes know if they ever want to move up the food ladder we need the young and keen to take our places. Typically an apprentice would do everything a normal plumber would do except he would be supervised and the work inspected, of course there is a certain element of labouring but i think most would agree we started from the bottom and worked our way up, anything i ask someone to do now is something i have done myself in the past.

Interestingly, 48 weeks at 2 hours evening course per week = 96 hours learning. That's three weeks at 32 hours per week. These courses are generally eight weeks plus (or 256 hours of learning!).

No. Interestingly, 4 years at 48 weeks a year at 8 hours a day = 7680 hours of learning, so just to re-cap thats 7680 - 256 = 7424 hours more learning time than a fast track, getting my drift yet?

With my "qualifications" I know how to solder, fix taps and so on. My job usually soldering in new pipe, fixing taps, repairing loos, installing bathrooms, moving or installing radiators and stuff like that. It's not rocket science but I did my course because I wanted to know how to do these jobs properly.

Congratulations, you have a certificate in DIY. An apprenticeship teaches you all that + more and it also teaches you the science and engineering principles behind plumbing, and when you understand & apply these to situations, then you are a tradesman.

If I get a job that requires more ability than I have (e.g. installing a brand new central heating system) I'll back off and recommend a more experienced plumber. One day (in a few years time?), I'll learn enough to be able to do that job myself.

Then one day in a few years time you may be, what i class as a plumber! but hold on in the next sentance you made this statement;

I don't know everything ................... but I do consider myself a "qualified compentent plumber"

If the point you're making is someone new to the industry does not know anything like as much as an old hand I'd agree and think most other fast trackers will as well.

We're not necessarily worse than apprentice trained though. We just have less experience in dealing with things we weren't taught like, how to cope with imperial sized pipes and copper waste pipes.[/quote]

Yes i am making that point, but what i dislike about these 'fasttrackers' is that they cant get employment as they dont have experience so they go out and get there experience on the un-suspecting public, undercut the proper plumbers and make a hash of the job and a hash of the industry because they call themselves plumbers!

And as for how to cope with imperial sizes?!?! if your struggling with that then i suggest you try a different trade! before you even start working as an apprentice i would expect them to have a grasp of numeracy 1" = 25.4mm, 1/2" = 12.7mm etc etc

Now I hope i've got my point across, i have a fast track plumber and after 4 years he's not bad, 10/10 for keeness. But the apprentice's who are just finishing there 4 years run rings round him apart from in the maturity department, and unfortunatley thats the way things are, you want a trade then do it properly, do an apprenticeship

 

[HTB]

Good points well made PJE.

My problem is that although I fit the description of being a fast tracker, my 30 year background in engineering did give me a slight edge over the Carpet Showroom Manager on the bench next to me on my fast track course.

Sitting on a shelf facing me as I type this is is a small silver trophy I was awarded back in 1998 by ETSU (long before I trained as a plumber) where a design I created for a Clean Water uptake and Sewerage Discharge system to be used in a large Chemical Cleaning Facility was entered (not by me but by my superiors) into a National "Ideas" competition. It came 3rd overall in the Complete Competition but won the Environmental element.

It was put into place by the MOD and made savings of over £80,000 year on year, I won't bore you with the details of it, it just worked.

My point being that domestic plumbing is just another form of engineering, and after nearly 5 years of plumbing, I am now training to be a gas technician, where I'm sure the practices I became familiar with as an aircraft technician and as a Qualified ISO 9001 QA auditor, plus my background in Health & Safety will stand me in good stead.

To be fair most of the fast trackers with an engineering background do alright, its the ones with no engineering experience that struggle the most, and to be honest, nature seems to weed them out pretty quickly.

 

[Mushybees]

From what I've heard an old fashioned apprentice spent the first year or two learning how to do things like make the tea, fetch and carry things from and to the van, hold the basin in place while his master screws the thing into the wall and so on. I assume this is why they call these courses fast track because the training centres don't teach you these pointless tasks and get on with teaching you how to solder, the water regs and so on.

Absolute nonsense.
I had to fetch and carry for a few months while the gaffer sussed me out. After he was satisfied I was fairly sharp and I was picking things up quickly I was on the tools all the time.
At the end of my first year I was doing first fix on large central heating jobs.
Granted I was given some cack jobs like chasing walls with hammer and bolster, taking out the cast iron baths and lifting boards but they are all jobs I have to do myself now anyway as an unsupervised plumber.

We're not necessarily worse than apprentice trained though. We just have less experience in dealing with things we weren't taught like, how to cope with imperial sized pipes and copper waste pipes.

That doesn't make sense mate.
There are two plumbers. One has learned all aspects of the trade and the other hasn't.
They both call themselves plumbers and they both have a good work ethic and standard of work.

Which is the better plumber?

 

[james017]

You do make a good point i am just thinking how hard will it be for me to find someone good to take me on as an apprentice? ( considering the current climate we are in) and even if i do the fast track course i would still need the same amount of experiance as an apprentice, my mind is split in two because i dont know if someone would take me on as an apprentice and i have no clue where too look

 

[WaterTight]

I have recently finnished a fast-track course and am now looking for work as a plumber's mate or apprentice. That's how I viewed the course. Not as the equivalent of an apprenticeship, you'd have to be mad (or already very experienced in closely related work) to think so.

My personal take is that I'm prepared to take **** money, do the **** jobs and spend up to half a decade getting the point where I can start to earn a basic plumber's money. It doesn't seem like the world's most unrealistic goal but I guess I'll find out.

I cannot see how I could be any worse than another person looking to start work as an apprentice. Both of us will have to begin from scratch with no on-the-job experience at some point. I just happen to have to done the course already rather than chosen to do it 1 day a week as I go along.

Obviously an apprentice with 4 years experience is going to be better than I am but that's not my competition as I see it. I'm looking to BEGIN as an apprentice with the background of the fast-track course as a leg-up. I know it's not the traditional way of doing it but I hoped having done the course first might prove to be an advantage.

My main obstacle at the moment I guess is the job market and the recession because it turns out I'm being turned down endless times already despite offering to work for free for a few months until I begin to be of use and then for minimum wage. When you aren't accepted to work for free, at the wage of and in the job position of a starter apprentice, with your own tools and transport and the C&G Tech Cert under your belt... well I didn't quite see that coming. Maybe virtually no apprentices are being taken on at all.

 

[Mushybees]

I have recently finnished a fast-track course and am now looking for work as a plumber's mate or apprentice. That's how I viewed the course. Not as the equivalent of an apprenticeship, you'd have to be mad (or already very experienced in closely related work) to think so.

That's a healthy way of looking at it.

There's a lot of anecdotal evidence, on this forum alone, to suggest that plumbers aren't as in demand as these training centres claim. Yet people still demand that the market accommodates them.

It doesn't make sense.
If I really wanted to be, for instance, a museum curator but there were very few vacancies and many qualified people applying for the same job, I'd rule out that career as the one for me.
I don't blame the people who are flooding the market. I blame the unscrupulous types who have marketed plumbing as the quick and easy way of being your own boss whilst making mega bucks. It's all lies.

 

[gravytrain]

hi everyone, just joined this forum today. this is a really interesting discussion.

i also did a fast track course. i would say there is a big difference between the quality of courses offered. i did the full C + G 6129. this is the same course your average 17 yr old does at college over two years. however i still had to pass the same exams and pass all the same practicals. all work must be +- 2mm or its a fail, and i didn't get ANY lee way. i also really usefully learned how to make a box out of a piece of lead but without any joints or seams, since this comes in really handy these days.

what of course you don't get is experience. many of these training centres claim that you can become a plumber with no previous experience at all. this is the bit that is untrue. if you've never done any building or serious DIY i think you would struggle once you start work. i'm lucky that i have a lot of experience over the years which i have put to good use since.

the other thing is if someone didn't get the chance to do an apprenticeship when they left school at 16 does that rule out anyone from joining a trade.

i'm so glad i left my last job, i've really enjoyed the last six months. i really look after my customers and do the best job i can. any self employed plumber will tell you that work comes from a good reputation and reccommendation so what's the point of doing a crap job.

so far ive had more work than i expected, so i'm really happy.

rob

 

[PJE1098]

I think that your personal achievements are great but unfortunately many "Quickies" are not like yourself...

If this perception of "qualified" was the same in other professions like, Doctors, Nurses, Lawyers Etc... The world would be an even scarier place..

Anyway all the best in your business.. PJE

 

[alph250]

James, Where abouts in the country are you?

There are fors and against for yourself as an apprentice, anyone employing you would be getting a mature level headed person who wants to undertake an apprenticeship, plus you would already be driving (i assume) so it would put you in good stead.

On the other hand they cant pay you a sh*t wage but then if there only after cheap labour it kind of reflects on them. I also think that if you chose an apprenticeship over fast tracking then it would show the potential employer that you are commited to the training and prove yourself as a worthwhile investment.

Also I can't see the logic in spending £5-6K on a fast track course as a 'hop up' onto an apprenticeship, surely your better of saving that £5-6K to supplement your wgaes for the first 1-2 years! or is that common sense!

 

[HTB]

A nice debate with good points all round, thanks PJE, good luck to you and all, hopefully we'll all make through the hard times and reap the benefits when things get better.