Reliability of fault codes potterton

[ShaunCorbs]

Isn't the item circled on top of the manifold a thermostatic air vent?.

Just an automatic air vent yes

 

[johnnyt74]

I assume that is a TMV to give the required much lower UFH temperatures required.
If one of the actual boiler trips is the deltaT between the flow & return then most trip at a deltaT of 30C so perhaps this is what is tripping the boiler but this would/should only happen if no ABV is fitted, you have which we assume is working OK, you can see the effect of by pass vs no pass in the attachments if my calcs are correct.
I think the first thing to establish is what actually are the conditions that flag this low flow circ trip, there is no explanation in your manual and mine might be completely wrong.

I am just assuming UFH requirements but the relative flows and temps should still be correct.

I see the UFH TMV is on the left of the manifold but havn't a clue what you mean by a TRV on the manifold (circled).

View attachment 63686

View attachment 63687

Wow John!! Thanks for doing those calculations and drawing that out. I'm embarrassed to say that I'm struggling to interpret the findings of them. Am I correct in thinking the "DeltaT" is the difference in temperature between the flow and return? And, if I have an automatic bypass fitted then I need to maintain a difference of 15 deg between the flow and return or the boiler will trip? However, if I don't have an automatic bypass fitted (which I don't now as far as I'm aware) then I can have a difference of 30 degrees between the flow and return?

So, if I'm correct above, I'm better to not have a bypass? Is that correct?

Thank you again for your hard work on this. I'll answer other questions/support in another reply on here.

 

[johnnyt74]

No sorry on the rad that the grey hep supplies can you remove it to test something eg the trv head

Apologies, all. It seems that (what I thought) was a TRV on the UFH manifold is, in fact, a "TMV" (Thermostatic Mixing Valve). as oppose to a Thermostatic Radiator Valve (I got a clue when I Googled TRV and saw that the "R" stands for Radiator )

@ShaunCorbs yes, there's a TRV on the radiator that has the grey pipe going to it and I can remove and test anything you would like? Just let me know what you'd like me to do and I'll try it. Thanks

 

[John.g]

Wow John!! Thanks for doing those calculations and drawing that out. I'm embarrassed to say that I'm struggling to interpret the findings of them. Am I correct in thinking the "DeltaT" is the difference in temperature between the flow and return? And, if I have an automatic bypass fitted then I need to maintain a difference of 15 deg between the flow and return or the boiler will trip? However, if I don't have an automatic bypass fitted (which I don't now as far as I'm aware) then I can have a difference of 30 degrees between the flow and return?

So, if I'm correct above, I'm better to not have a bypass? Is that correct?

Thank you again for your hard work on this. I'll answer other questions/support in another reply on here.

Yes, the deltaT is the difference between the flow/return and ideally should be kept ~ 15/20C but with UFH only on because of the ratio of boiler flow to UFH flow then you can have a huge boiler deltaT depending on the boiler flow temp and the UFH (mixed) flow temperatures which means that you can have a very high undesirable boiler deltaT which on some boilers will initiate a trip if it exceeds 30C or so, I only used the attachments to show how the deltaT can change with/without by pass.

You have a bypass which is set very low IMO, phot 7 post#12, see posts #15&16 as well.

I find it a bit strange that the systems work fine when running separately but not with both on together.

Can you say how long it takes the boiler to trip if you have, say, the Rads on and you then call in the UFH, does it trip immediately or is there a time delay or whatever.
If its not a immediate trip can you monitor the boiler flow temperature immediately before and after calling in the second system to see if it changes dramatically.

 

[johnnyt74]

Yes, the deltaT is the difference between the flow/return and ideally should be kept ~ 15/20C but with UFH only on because of the ratio of boiler flow to UFH flow then you can have a huge boiler deltaT depending on the boiler flow temp and the UFH (mixed) flow temperatures which means that you can have a very high undesirable boiler deltaT which on some boilers will initiate a rip if it exceeds 30C or so, I only used the attachments to show how the deltaT can change with/without by pass.

You have a bypass which is set very low IMO, phot 7 post#12, see posts #15&16 as well.

I find it a bit strange that the systems work fine when running separately but not with both on together.

Can you say how long it takes the boiler to trip if you have, say, the Rads on and you then call in the UFH, does it trip immediately or is there a time delay or whatever.

Thanks John for the clarification.

I tried this last night. I set up my phone to video the boiler temperature and the boiler pressure and then put the radiators and the UFH on. Unfortunately it didn't trip!! However, it was only a quick test as my wife was working nights so I didn't have long before we needed to eat and let her get ready for work.

I'm planning on trying it again tonight to see what happens.

I've also got the plumber coming back tomorrow as the heated floor is very 'patchy'. I'm wondering if it could possibly be a combination of air locks etc causing issues? However, he has promised to get to the bottom of it tomorrow.

I'll fire everything up properly tonight and see if it trips again. It certainly isn't tripping within a minute or two. If I had to guess I would say that it stays working for at least 20 minutes.

Obviouisly, I'll keep posting back with any developments this end - especially if the plumber gets to the bottom of it.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Apologies, all. It seems that (what I thought) was a TRV on the UFH manifold is, in fact, a "TMV" (Thermostatic Mixing Valve). as oppose to a Thermostatic Radiator Valve (I got a clue when I Googled TRV and saw that the "R" stands for Radiator )

@ShaunCorbs yes, there's a TRV on the radiator that has the grey pipe going to it and I can remove and test anything you would like? Just let me know what you'd like me to do and I'll try it. Thanks

Remove the trv the rad will act like a bypass and the 125 shouldn’t appear

 

[John.g]

Shaun, isn't the existing ABV acting (if in fact its opening at 1.2 M) as a huge by pass all the time with UFH on?.

 

[johnnyt74]

Remove the trv the rad will act like a bypass and the 125 shouldn’t appear

Shaun, isn't the existing ABV acting (if in fact its opening at 1.2 M) as a huge by pass all the time?.

Shaun, really clever solution! Thanks.

I've spoken to the plumber and he has assured me that I already have auto bypass valve fitted and I'm hoping to keep that TRV on that radiator as I spend a lot of time in that room (converted garage) as it has my computer in there and an exercise bike (I'll melt if I can't turn that radiator down!! )

What is the "M" referring to in 1.2M? Is that metres cubed relating to the flow? Could the setting on the ABV be the issue?

Thanks

 

[John.g]

M = Meters, the ABV indexed setting is 0.1 to 0.5Bar which is 1 to 5 meters and as the pump head is always given in Meters (M) I just convert the ABV scale.
Regarding the garage rad, when you have the two systems on (and which subsequently trip) surely you have a number of other rads on? so one (garage) rad with a TRV should have little or no effect IMO.
That setting of 1.2M seems very low.

 

[johnnyt74]

M = Meters, the ABV indexed setting is 0.1 to 0.5Bar which is 1 to 5 meters and as the pump head is always given in Meters (M) I just convert the ABV scale.
Regarding the garage rad, when you have the two systems on (and which subsequently trip) surely you have a number of other rads on? so one (garage) rad with a TRV should have little or no effect IMO.

Thanks for the explanation. Yes, I have rads on through-out the house - albeit at different levels on the TRV's.

Thanks

 

[John.g]

Something strange alright as ironically, the more the rad TRVs throttle in the more the set up tends to the UFH side (no trip). Is the ABV very hot on both sides of the pipework.
I think monitoring the boiler flow temperature later on will tell a lot, hopefully.

Also if the rad system is on alone then you can get huge deltaTs with no by pass and TRVs, my oil fired boiler regularly has a delta T of > 35C as I have no by pass fitted so again strange why your system doesn't trip on the rad system only.

 

[johnnyt74]

Something strange alright as ironically, the more the rad TRVs throttle in the more the set up tends to the UFH side (no trip). Is the ABV very hot on both sides of the pipework.
I think monitoring the boiler flow temperature later on will tell a lot, hopefully.

Also if the rad system is on alone then you can get huge deltaTs with no by pass and TRVs, my oil fired boiler regularly has a delta T of > 35C as I have no by pass fitted so again strange why your system doesn't trip on the rad system only.

The full fault description of E125 is:
Circulation Fault (Primary Circuit)

Displayed in either of two situations:
- If within 15 seconds of the burner lighting the boiler temperature has not changed by 1°.
-If within 10 minutes of the burner lighting the boiler temperature twice exceeds the selected temperature by 30°. In these instances poor primary circulation is indicated.

So, are you saying that the DeltaT is the measurement for that second fault reason (If within 10 minutes of the burner lighting the boiler temperature twice exceeds the selected temperature by 30°. In these instances poor primary circulation is indicated.) ?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Can we just try removing the trv head for a day or two when you want either on will prove if there’s no flow eg no auto bypass on the primary’s

 

[johnnyt74]

Can we just try removing the trv head for a day or two when you want either on will prove if there’s no flow eg no auto bypass on the primary’s

Certainly! No harm in trying it. I'll do it over the weekend

 

[John.g]

The full fault description of E125 is:
Circulation Fault (Primary Circuit)

Displayed in either of two situations:
- If within 15 seconds of the burner lighting the boiler temperature has not changed by 1°.
-If within 10 minutes of the burner lighting the boiler temperature twice exceeds the selected temperature by 30°. In these instances poor primary circulation is indicated.

So, are you saying that the DeltaT is the measurement for that second fault reason (If within 10 minutes of the burner lighting the boiler temperature twice exceeds the selected temperature by 30°. In these instances poor primary circulation is indicated.) ?

If it's the deltaT that its monitoring then yes, definitely a indication of poor circulation, but the actual wording doesn't say that, its says:
"the boiler temperature twice exceeds the selected temperature by 30°. In these instances poor primary circulation is indicated" which I interpret to mean that the boiler temperature must exceed the target or set point flow temperature by 30C, so if you have the boiler target (setpoint) temp set to 65C then the boiler flow temperature must exceed 95C before flagging this alarm/trip and perhaps this what is happening.

 

[johnnyt74]

If it's the deltaT that its monitoring then yes, definitely a indication of poor circulation, but the actual wording doesn't say that, its says:
"the boiler temperature twice exceeds the selected temperature by 30°. In these instances poor primary circulation is indicated" which I interpret to mean that the boiler temperature must exceed the target or set point flow temperature by 30C, so if you have the boiler target (setpoint) temp set to 65C then the boiler flow temperature must exceed 95C before flagging this alarm/trip and perhaps this what is happening.

I wonder if you've maybe just hit the sharp pointy thing on the end with that statement.? I have noticed the boiler temperature climbing up to 80+ and then slowly coming back down again... It seems to climb when the UFH is calling for water/heat. I wonder if the flow at the UFH is on the feathery-edge of tripping the boiler based on this?

Previously as well, the boiler radiator temperature was turned right down (I've since turned it up to 65 deg previously it was only at around 40 deg) which would obviously lower the tripping out temperature....??

Hmmmm... I'll keep an eye on the temperature when I have a play around with it later.

Thanks

 

[John.g]

The burner should cut out at the setpoint+5C if the heat demand is less than the boiler minimum outpout and the circ pump should run on (pump overrun & anti cycle time) for a fixed time maybe 3 minutes or so and if the Rads or/and the UFH are still calling for some heat then they will/should reduce the return and flow temperatures by say 10C, the burner will then fire up and continue to fire until the above happens again OR until no demand for heat from both the UFH & Rads in which case there must/should be a bypass either automatic or a rad (without a TRV) to allow circulation and cool down the water as the zone valves will have closed. So don't know if the ABV shown is on the primary flow and if its orientated properly or if its full of sludge with no effective by pass as a setting of 1.2M should by pass more than enough IMO, they might normally be set to 0.30/0.4 Bar (3M/4M). to prevent too much by pass and starve the UFH or whatever of hot water.

 

[johnnyt74]

The burner should cut out at the setpoint+5C if the heat demand is less than the boiler minimum outpout and the circ pump should run on (pump overrun & anti cycle time) for a fixed time maybe 3 minutes or so and if the Rads or/and the UFH are still calling for some heat then they will/should reduce the return and flow temperatures by say 10C, the burner will then fire up and continue to fire until the above happens again OR until no demand for heat from both the UFH & Rads in which case there must/should be a bypass either automatic or a rad (without a TRV) to allow circulation and cool down the water as the zone valves will have closed. So don't know if the ABV shown is on the primary flow and if its orientated properly or if its full of sludge with no effective by pass as a setting of 1.2M should by pass more than enough IMO, they might normally be set to 0.30/0.4 Bar (3M/4M). to prevent too much by pass and starve the UFH or whatever of hot water.

I wonder if the UFH heat could be 'patchy' because not enough water is getting to it? It's all being bypassed?

I'll mention it to the plumber tomorrow when I see him. Thanks

 

[John.g]

Yes, that's a real possibility, I think you have flow meters which should indicate the flow through each UFH loop in LPM.?

 

[johnnyt74]

Yes, that's a real possibility, I think you have flow meters which should indicate the flow through each UFH loop in LPM.?

Yep, I think the system definitely needs balancing anyway. Thanks again. Your help has been superb

 

[John.g]

Hope your plumber has arrived. If you look at the attachment sometime can you confirm my queries (text), also presume the rads are plumbed in further back on the same piping but with zoning?.

 

[johnnyt74]

Hope your plumber has arrived. If you look at the attachment sometime can you confirm my queries (text), also presume the rads are plumbed in further back on the same piping but with zoning?.

Yes, the plumber turned up first thing thanks. He said that the jobs not finished and he's going to get it sorted. He's thinking that it's all to do with air in the system and that he'll get it sorted. Although he left and I've not seen him since so not sure if he's sorting it today or coming back next week?

To answer your questions in the text on the image - yes, those pipes were run just for the UFH and arrive (without interruption) back into the "boiler cupboard" as marked on this image. I'm not sure about your "presume the rads are plumbed in further back on the same piping but with zoning" question as I can't make head or tail out of the pipework in the boiler cupboard? So, can't really say? I presume so.

 

[John.g]

While you are waiting maybe try ShaunCorbs suggestion first and if no joy increase the ABV setting to say 0.25/0.3bar and note the UFH flow gauge readings before/after any changes, you can always change it back after your tests.

 

[johnnyt74]

While you are waiting maybe try ShaunCorbs suggestion first and if no joy increase the ABV setting to say 0.25/0.3bar and note the UFH flow gauge readings before/after any changes, you can always change it back after your tests.

Yep, good idea. I'll hopefully get to do that over the weekend. I'm currently boarding out the extension so like to keep the floor off during the day (as it sweltering otherwise) but I want to test a few things this weekend and try and get to the bottom of it.
Thanks for your help. I'll post back with any developments

 

[johnnyt74]

Just a quick update on this.... I've not had another trip since the plumbers visit. He bled all the rads when he came and he phoned Saturday and told me that he's 100% convinced it's just air in the system and that it just needs time to settle and bleed off.

He's going to test it next time he's here and, if necessary, "blast the air out of it". But he's hopeful the air will just dissipate as it's used. I put the heating and UFH on simultaneously every evening since Thursday and (fingers firmly crossed) the E125 fault hasn't returned?

So, I'm hoping he's right. Assuming the UFH was full of air, I was wondering if that would restrict the flow of water, therefore making the boiler temp go over the "30 deg above set point" rule and therefore faulting on E125. It makes sense in my tiny, non-plumbing brain??