S-Plan Central Heating Installation Question

[Gasmk1]

so long as rewire is from fused spur then no not req

 

[SimonG]

To op and wrt response to Murdoch.

You talk of issues with your system.

You talk of customer.

You talk of diving into the wiring centre.

You talk and make incorrect statements.

For the safety of yourself and others then please use a competent person to complete the works.

 

[Murdoch]

Also , about the existing wiring, every cable on a 230v system should have an earth (cpc) and I see that some of the cores are over sleeved as live - this isn't good either.

Just because the cable is running to a class 2 piece of equipment, doesn't mean you can omit the earth (cpc) as it must be connected at the supply end

 

[RayPooley]

On the subject of EIC requirement for this job.

In 2012 an impact assessment was conducted into the effect of reducing the number of circumstances where electrical works on domestic dwellings were deemed notifiable.

I presume the reason for this assessment was to reduce backlog and future work load on local authority building control departments of applications because the numbers were huge and burdensome.

Included in that assessment was the recommendation that 100% of works involving heating control systems be excluded.

In the subsequent approved 2013 revision of the Part P regulations there is no specific reference to heating control systems.

What you will find is a section "Changes to Part P 2013".

Notifiable works includes "The installation of a new circuit".

To give an example, if you tear out the entire electrical installation of a dwelling with view to installing a new installation that would be deemed a rewiring of the dwelling and would therefore be notifiable and you would expect an installer to produce a EICR on completion.

In the case that I present here the installer will be completely removing an old electrical circuit, including equipment, and installing new equipment and a new electrical circuit that is completely different in it's layout to the old circuit.

A new circuit. A rewiring but on a smaller scale.

Since Part P specifically states that "The installation of a new circuit" is notifiable I would expect that to imply an EIC when the job is completed. Otherwise what's the point? The purpose of these rules is accountability.

I do realize, of course, that a lot hangs on the interpretation of the word "new" in this part of the regulations. But I don't think any reasonable person would consider this a reference to function rather than form. If that were the case you could apply the same argument to the rewiring of a dwelling and subsequently conclude that notification was unnecessary. And you would be wrong in that conclusion.

So, an EIC will be required from the installer when the job is competed.

 

[SimonG]

God loves a tryer, but still wrong and to draw a comparison between rewiring a house and heating controls is laughable.

 

[RayPooley]

God loves a tryer, but still wrong and to draw a comparison between rewiring a house and heating controls is laughable.

Laugh away.

But you seem to be overlooking an important point here.

This installation was originally installed by someone with all the accoutrements of what YOU would deem to be a "competent" service provider. I'm not sure what those accoutrements entail. A van with a trade name on the side? Trade organization membership and emblems on the doors? Companies House registration? Is that your yard stick?

Ok. A bit naieve in my experience

What I know about this installation is that this was the case when this system was initially installed.
A subcontractor to the main building contractor. A part of larger project.

And yet here we are. An "incompetent" like me sorting the problems out. Right?

But at the end of the day an EIC will be a listed requirement on the job spec.

Any tradesman who doesn't wish to sanction their own work need not apply. Nor will their application be considered
without such an agreement.

So I guess that would rule you out.

 

[Murdoch]

So come on Ray, come clean about your involvement in this because you can't be claiming to be a CPS registered spark can you?

 

[RayPooley]

So come on Ray, come clean about your involvement in this because you can't be claiming to be a CPS registered spark can you?

The owner is an old friend of mine. Known her for 43 years.

She's spent £130K in two years on home refurbishments. Attached is a an extract of an email I received from her.

It's a shame that people end up feeling this way when they go out of their way to procure credentialled service providers so that they don't end up in these circumstances. But this is where she finds herself with painful regularity.

So excuse me if I roll my eyes when people start preaching about competency registers. You can't teach competency in a classroom.

So she turns to her old, reliable friend Ray, the Engineer, for advice when things go wrong as they so often do.

Case in point. The old friend Ray always come up with a solution.

Now as far as I'm aware you don't need to be on the competency register to intervene and offer advice to anyone.

Or to buy a copy of the BS7671 IET Wiring Regulations and On-site Guide, read it and adhere to its recommendations.

But if the job I have described is not notifiable work, as you claim, then there is really no reason I can't do it myself.

It's 46 connections between 7 devices. You really think a mechanical and electrical engineer can't handle that?

The fact is that I want the work to be certificated whether Building Regs Part P requires it or not. So that she can have
some form of certification of works. to staple to her EICR.

 

[Murdoch]

^^ you brought up the Part P business and your understanding of the use of EICR's and EIC's is suspect too.

Your starting point is really to look at the EIC that the contractor gave to your friend ........

 

[RayPooley]

^^ you brought up the Part P business and your understanding of the use of EICR's and EIC's is suspect too.

Your starting point is really to look at the EIC that the contractor gave to your friend ........

That's ok. You can have the last word.

 

[Murdoch]

That's ok. You can have the last word.

Thanks.

So this comes under the minor works scope - so as long as you have calibrated test equipment and can issue a MWC then crack on

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink

 

[RayPooley]

Thanks.

So this comes under the minor works scope - so as long as you have calibrated test equipment and can issue a MWC then crack on

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink

An aside.

See this attached? Tell me what you think of it.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Looks fine and nicely clipped

 

[RayPooley]

Looks fine and nicely clipped

Really? Do you know what it is?

 

[Murdoch]

those are a 2G socket and a 45A isolator with a built in 13A socket

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Cooker point with 1g appliance socket normally for a kettle but depending on the oven / hob can be used for that

 

[RayPooley]

those are a 2G socket and a 45A isolator with a built in 13A socket

Ok. Put simply it's a cooker isolation switch.
What's missing from the picture is the UTC freezer that lives in front of it and normally weights about 60 - 70 Kg fully laden.
You can see the other two fridges one either side.
So, in a crisis situation requiring isolation of the cooker, like a fire for example, where it would be advisable to turn off the power to the cooker before using a fire extinguisher you would have to remove the freezer in order to gain access to the isolation switch.
Do you think that's a good idea?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Mcb/ rcbo also this would of tripped before any electrical fire

But consumer unit

 

[Murdoch]

Ok. Put simply it's a cooker isolation switch.
What's missing from the picture is the UTC freezer that lives in front of it and normally weights about 60 - 70 Kg fully laden.
You can see the other two fridges one either side.
So, in a crisis situation requiring isolation of the cooker, like a fire for example, where it would be advisable to turn off the power to the cooker before using a fire extinguisher you would have to remove the freezer in order to gain access to the isolation switch.
Do you think that's a good idea?

No it’s not a good idea to position an isolation switch there BUT there is nothing in BS 7671 that says you can’t do it

Yes the regs are written that badly

 

[RayPooley]

Mcb/ rcbo also this would of tripped before any electrical fire

But consumer unit

What? A burning chip pan on a cooker is going to trip an MCB/RCBO/RCD?
Oh. That's ok then. What do we need an isolation switch for then?
Better let the IET know. Been doing it wrong all these years.

 

[SimonG]

Why use ten words when a hundred will do. Or is that back to front.

Just crack on lifes too short to be dealing with people like you and it's all fine from my house.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

What? A burning chip pan on a cooker is going to trip an MCB/RCBO/RCD?
Oh. That's ok then. What do we need an isolation switch for then?
Better let the IET know. Been doing it wrong all these years.

How would pulling the appliance and turning off the appliance isolation do the same then

For manufacturer servicing of the fixed appliance

 

[RayPooley]

No it’s not a good idea to position an isolation switch there BUT there is nothing in BS 7671 that says you can’t do it

Yes the regs are written that badly

Within 2 metres of the oven and accessible. Doesn't that ring a bell?

Those are the main criteria assuming you use the correct MCB and cabling.

You can put it in a cupboard so long as you can open the cupboard and access it when necessary. Accessibility is important.

The guy who did that also left the CU in such a condition that you couldn't close it properly.

He produced an EIC at the end of the job. So it's reasonable to assume that he is competency registered. Right?

Of the various adjectives you might ascribe to that installation competent isn't one of them.

I called him back to the site and had him surface mount it ABOVE the counter top and in line with the three 2G sockets that are already there. Out of the reach of potential spillages. Visible and easily accessible.

Also told him to sort out the CU. Leaving it the way he found it. Closable

Why would I have to tell a competency registered electrician to do that? You get my point?

It's because competency has nothing to do with following the regulations.

You can and should do everything in accordance with the regulations and from a regulation standpoint be beyond criticism.

But competence is about common sense. You can't regulate stupidity.

 

[RayPooley]

How would pulling the appliance and turning off the appliance isolation do the same then

For manufacturer servicing of the fixed appliance

A 5' 2", 8 stone 54 year old arthritic female cook versus a 60 - 70 Kg freezer.
What's the problem? Easy peasy.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

A 5' 2", 8 stone 54 year old arthritic female cook versus a 60 - 70 Kg freezer.
What's the problem? Easy peasy.

But you said above turning the elec off won’t stop the fire