Shut off valve for hot water

[LCV]

Hi,

I've had a new heating system installed (system boiler and indirect unvented pressurised hot water cylinder) as part of a house renovation. I've had two plumbers in, plumber1 who is part of the loft conversion company and the plumber2 part of builder's team for the rest of the house.

When plumber1 was connecting loft to the heating system he said that he noticed there was no shut off valve for the hot water. As one was not there he said he had to wait 45mins for the hot water to drain and if I had a shut off valve then he wasn't have had to do that. As such he would recommend asking plumber2 to put one in above the hot water cylinder.

However when I approached plumber2 with this request he said it was illegal to add a shut off valve above the hot water cylinder and if he did so there is a rest it would explode as it is a pressurised system.

I am very confused as plumber1 seemed to be a very competent plumber so I doubt he would have advised doing something so dangerous. I wonder if plumber2 is just saying that because he doesn't want the hassle of adding it in or perhaps I have misunderstood what plumber1 was advising me to do.

Great to hear your thoughts on this.

 

[Jay The Plumber]

the biggest worry is the draining down of the PV, unneccesary and makes me worry that someone has connected DHW to rads (yes, I've see it)

 

[LCV]

I was careful in selecting the main contractor. It took me six months to find the right team. I was very diligent when my checks, I visited his previous clients, followed up on references, checked his insurance, reads reviews on various trade sites, he is a member of the FMB, trustmark, etc. This company specialises in full house renovations and it would be in my builder's interest (as he owns the business) that he employs, not sub-contract out, a good plumber as every house renovation involves plumbing.
Every renovation, especially your own home, is scary and carries risk. I am relieved to say that I have been happy with their work so far, they have sorted out problems with no hassle and have been good to work with. We are due to move back in two week's time.

I am baffled with why plumber1 gave me that advice and plumber2 said what he said (as I doubt very much it is illegal). Even on this forum I've received different views.

 

[Best]

To fit a lever valve on the hot outlet of an unvented unit by a G3 plumber is possible, but not usually needed.
A valve to the supply to the unit is obviously needed, but it is illegal and a potential safety risk to fit it in incorrect place.
I can't understand the plumbers not explaining it properly

 

[Radioman]

Unfortunately I don't get to choose the plumber. Plumber1 is part of the loft company's team. Plumber2 is part of the builder's team.

Basically you are perfectly within your rights to ask the contractor to confirm the qualifications of any of the tradesmen he employs. This is especially important for electrical and plumbing work. I am afraid in these days of open borders there are workers on many sites in the UK that are not qualified to practice their trades in the UK. Regulations for electrical and plumbing installations are not the same in any of the EU countries.

I am not suggesting that this is true of your contractor, we all know UK tradesmen are quite capable of corner cutting. But this is what can happen.

A neighbour of mine recently did exactly what you are doing: employed a company to knock down 85% of his 2 bed bungalow and build a 5 bed house. Carried out all due diligence, same as you. Turned out the company employed Lithuanian and Estonian trades exclusively. Not knowing any better and based on references etc he expected it to be a good job and generally it was. Except it was built to Eastern Europe regs, not UK. Building controls and health and safety had a field day. Electrics condemned , construction methods wrong, such as no brick ties, joists set into walls not on hangers, cavity wrong size, lintels installed without pads, insufficient protection at height, no public liability insurance, no safety equipment or protective clothing, working outside permitted hours, including Sunday's and Bank Holidays, everything like we would have done it in 1952. It was quite entertaining sitting in my garden listening to the arguments through a translator between building control, the foreman and the various trades. The recurring theme was "I don't care how how it's done at home, your not doing it like that here. Do it again"

Ultimately you are the one responsible for the final product. You are the one who will have to provide all the certificates for electrics, plumbing, Windows, etc, etc, if and when you sell. So simply asking the boss man to provide you with the installers G3 qualification should not be a problem, should it?

 

[joni os]

Don't understand above reference to:- "working outside permitted hours, including Sundays and bank holidays". Sounds like something people working 9 -5 would like to enforce, until the boiler breaks down on a Saturday night, or they need to visit A&E.

 

[Radioman]

Don't understand above reference to:- "working outside permitted hours, including Sundays and bank holidays". Sounds like something people working 9 -5 would like to enforce, until the boiler breaks down on a Saturday night, or they need to visit A&E.

Ok commercial building sites are required to stop operations after 13:00 Saturday's no work on Sunday's and Bank Holidays. No start before 07:30 and finish no later than 18:00. This includes quite works but not emergency work. This can be varied depending on planning permission and Party Wall Act contracts. 90 % of councils in England and Wales will enforce this if a complaint is received. There is an initial request to cease and if not complied with a section 60 prohibition notice is issued tout suite. Definition of Commercial is any works that are being paid for directly or indirectly. Basically it's there to protect the sanity of communities forced to endure noise and disruption caused by care less and usually Cowboy Builders, parking of trades vehicles and the usual pollution associated with construction.
If you had ever had to endure massive construction on your doorstep you would understand.

 

[joni os]

Being as I'm neither careless or a Cowboy Builder may explain why these restrictions are have never been applied to my works. Parking of a trade vehicle in a residential area is essential for most self employed plumbers. Sanity is something I'm not certified to comment on.

 

[Radioman]

Parking of a trade vehicle in a residential area is essential for most self employed plumbers.

Care less not careless. As in couldn't. Most sole traders park with consideration. And I was also referring to General Construction not single plumbers.

Personally I have sometimes had to park in the next road to the job and certainly in Greater London, would not move the vehicle again for fear of never getting anywhere near the job on return. We used to equip the vans with folding cycles for that reason. The particular reference I was making referred to a particular site that had 9 vans parked half on half off the pavement blocking both pedestrian and wide vehicles from passing.

 

[stevetheplumber]

i think joni is confusing small works with larger sitework .all work sites will have restrictions on when they can work its different to one man turning up for an hour to change taps were talking about jobs that may stretch over months and the disruption it may cause
bet you looked good on a folding bike with a bag of tools and two lengths of 4 inch radioman

 

[Radioman]

i think joni is confusing small works with larger sitework .all work sites will have restrictions on when they can work its different to one man turning up for an hour to change taps were talking about jobs that may stretch over months and the disruption it may cause
bet you looked good on a folding bike with a bag of tools and two lengths of 4 inch radioman

Ha ha LOL, they got used for popping to the shops for lunch or to the merchants for bits and bobs, tile trim etc. Small stuff. Cheaper than a mini cab though. Try parking in Hampstead or Crouch End.

 

[joni os]

Converting a single bungalow to a 5 bed house is hardly a massive construction project, although I accept it might take an extended period of time if frustrated by neighbours calling in HSE and being pedantic over party wall surveys. The definition of commercial work was given by poster. For some people the definition of what constitutes an emergency depends on whether it's their neighbours central heating or their own that has broken down.

 

[Radioman]

Converting a single bungalow to a 5 bed house is hardly a massive construction project, although I accept it might take an extended period of time if frustrated by neighbours calling in HSE and being pedantic over party wall surveys. The definition of commercial work was given by poster. For some people the definition of what constitutes an emergency depends on whether it's their neighbours central heating or their own that has broken down.

I am really going to have to bite my tongue now. Obviously you have never been in the situation where your privacy, property, equilibrium, have been threatened. Anyway, thanks to the Norman Conquest and Magna Carta we have ruling classes that made the rules to protect private property.

Obviously that is all said with tongue in cheek. Hope you are put in the position of having someone try to build on your land, or an absentee landlord who refuses to maintain his property and boundary. ( party wall act etc)

 

[kay-jay]

I personally always fit a gate or lever valve on the hot outlet on an unvented cylinder.
It most certainly is not illegal and it also is most certainly not going to cause the cylinder to implode, quite the opposite in fact.

I fit them for 2 reasons.
1) it is an immediate shut off
2) if you are only working on the hot supply in future, the cold supply to the house remains uninterrupted for the duration.

 

[kay-jay]

The other advantage of fitting a gate or lever valve to the hot water outlet of an unvented cylinder is ....
If you have this dedicated hw shut off and you operate it. You can check hw outlets around the property. Any water out the hot tap instantly diagnoses a shower/mixer tap fault

 

[Sparkgap]

I was careful in selecting the main contractor. It took me six months to find the right team. I was very diligent when my checks, I visited his previous clients, followed up on references, checked his insurance, reads reviews on various trade sites, he is a member of the FMB, trustmark, etc. This company specialises in full house renovations and it would be in my builder's interest (as he owns the business) that he employs, not sub-contract out, a good plumber as every house renovation involves plumbing.
Every renovation, especially your own home, is scary and carries risk. I am relieved to say that I have been happy with their work so far, they have sorted out problems with no hassle and have been good to work with. We are due to move back in two week's time.

I am baffled with why plumber1 gave me that advice and plumber2 said what he said (as I doubt very much it is illegal). Even on this forum I've received different views.

Unvented HWS 101: :smile5:
Sounds like one plumber is a bit old skool remembering the days of tank fed cylinders when the HWS outlet also acted as vent/expansion and it was a big no-no to shut them off.
Assuming the cylinder has been installed correctly any expansion should be taken up by either the internal air cushion or an external expansion vessel on the cold feed and any protective devices such as cut-outs, safety valves or temperature/pressure relief valves should be on/in the cylinder and not isolatable by a carelessly fitted valve! Therefore there should be no issues with putting a valve on the hot water outlet to isolate your mansion and the plumber who says otherwise is either totally misinformed or conversing out of his rectal orifice.

 

[macackau]

I am G3 registered and when I installed my own unvented cylinder and customers I always put a pressure guage, pipe thermometer and full bore lever valve on the hot outlet from the tank. The guages help with checking everything is working as it should be and the full bore valve makes isolating the hot water very quick and easy.

 

[dancinplumba]

Unvented HWS 101: :smile5:
Sounds like one plumber is a bit old skool remembering the days of tank fed cylinders when the HWS outlet also acted as vent/expansion and it was a big no-no to shut them off.
Assuming the cylinder has been installed correctly any expansion should be taken up by either the internal air cushion or an external expansion vessel on the cold feed and any protective devices such as cut-outs, safety valves or temperature/pressure relief valves should be on/in the cylinder and not isolatable by a carelessly fitted valve! Therefore there should be no issues with putting a valve on the hot water outlet to isolate your mansion and the plumber who says otherwise is either totally misinformed or conversing out of his rectal orifice.

could you say that again please